researching a luger
 

first , my name is chris. I am new to this forum and know very little about lugers besides they are cool and some are valuble.

that said,I have an old luger that was passed down to me from my great grandfather. I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out how old it is ,where(and when) manufactured and ballpark worth, for insurance reasons.

it is a 7.65 DWM IT HAS CROWN N MARKINGS. also has wooden rifle stock that goes with it. all parts appear to match up but I believe holster has been replaced at some point.

has not been fired in over 30 years but worked when last used, so believe it still should. it is a bit worn looking but for its age I would say very good shape.
any help would be apriciated

thanks for answering.
barrel is 3". yes, buttstock that slips into grip and yes it is wood. hopefully figure out how to get pics soon. working on it.

With a short barrel and a stock the luger combination is ILLEGAL.

It becomes a short barreled rifle and a free trip to club Fed or fine or confiscation or both.

You need to read some posts on the Navy and Artillery lugers(and carbines), as these are legal with stocks.

Don't connect the two and post pictures of each separately.

pictures please and welcome to the forum

see if this works

[QUOTE=DonVoigt;282333]With a short barrel and a stock the luger combination is ILLEGAL.

It becomes a short barreled rifle and a free trip to club Fed or fine or confiscation or both.

You need to read some posts on the Navy and Artillery lugers(and carbines), as these are legal with stocks.



thanks for that. I was not aware. I will keep them seperate.

Or, register with BATF. Then, attaching stock is OK. Unlike machine gun, short barrel rifle can still be registered. There is a fee though.

I was looking at some of the buttstocks on other threads mine is nowhere near as nice as some of those.I see where some of them ,the pistol will store inside the butt. the one I have is only about an inch thick.

so I was curious as to wether it was a bad idea to post pics of the butt on this thread, so long as I keep the seperate, would it be O.K.

Since you already said you "have" it, I don't see why not.

You can at least find out what it is.

It is better to store the stock at a different location from the luger; if in two different locations,
there is no "constructive" intent. Lawyer words for you may not get in trouble!:eek:

that was my thought also , so here it is

OK, it is an Artillery Luger stock. If you can photo the numbers and markings someone can tell you if it is original, but I seriously doubt that it is.
I'd keep them far apart, and don't photo them together.
The Luger looks very nice too, by the way...
dju

o.k. so this is only marking on buttstock

holster is in bad shape but you can see a number, not sure if it is 30 or 80 and then an L.

serial is 7913 and has 13 on various parts
germany
i


under the germany on the barrel I think the symbol is an i

holster

Hi Chris, Welcome to the forum! Take another look at the stock, see if it has a crown/gothic letter stamp about half way up on the left side, like the one shown in the photo. If it does then it's an authentic Artillery Luger stock and might be worth almost as much as the gun.
Regards, Norm

nope, no such mark.

out of curiousity ,how long does barrel have to be for buttstock to be legal?

RESEARCHER ASKED ABOVE:
"out of curiousity ,how long does barrel have to be for buttstock to be legal?"
I ANSWERED THIS QUESTION - AND ONLY THIS QUESTION:

The pistol has to be an original Navy or Artillery luger.
The stock has to be an original or exact duplicate.

Navy stocks cannot be attached to Artillery lugers; nor vice - versa.
Navy stocks are slightly shorter, and a little different shape than an Artillery stock.

A pistol with a minimum 16.1" barrel would be ok with a stock, as the barrel length would remove it from the "short" barrel category.

The numbered iron on your stock would tend to identify it as an original artillery stock, more/better focused pictures of each side , with a ruler in the picture would help. The stock itself has good value if original, more if marked with the crown/s as shown. It may be very faint on the back side.

I believe the holster in your picture is commercial, and not in great shape, so likely not too much value there.

The pistol does look to be in good shape, a 1920 commercial type, produced and marked for export likely to the US in the early 1920's.
The .30 cal and commercial lugers are not as appealing to most collectors and not valued as highly as a 9mm or military type.

I DON'T APPRECIATE YOUR MIS READING AND THEN SAYING i TOLD YOU THAT YOUR PISTOL WAS EITHER A NAVY OR ARTILLERY,
I DID NOT, RE-READ ABOVE.:soapbox:

iF YOU WOULD KEEP ALL YOUR QUESTIONS IN ONE POST IT WOULD HELP YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE!!!:typing:

ok . so I posted on the navy threads and got this response. lol. back to square one.


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Chris,
It is neither an artillery or navy. It is a 1920 "Alphabet" Commercial, so-called because the "i" is actually part of the serial number (i.e. the serial number of your gun is 7913i). In post-war commercial production the method of serial numbering the commercial guns was changed from the previous 5-digit format to the military style 4-digits and a lower case alphabet character. The Crown over N proof indicates that it is commercial rather than military. It is .30 caliber (7.65mm Parabellum) rather than 9mm. As you have been told in the other thread, the stock is of the artillery configuration and must not be attached to this gun as that is illegal under BATFE rules.
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ok that helps. was told on other thread it was navy or artillery. how would one find out the age, where it was made , ball park worth? could anyone recommend a source to find such things out?

The stock could have considerable value..let's take a look?

there actually are pics of stock on page one,posts 12 and 14. can find no other marking besides the one on metal where it attaches

Chris,
You have already received much of the relevant information already it the earlier posts. To expand on that here is some more:

"how would one find out the age" - As already stated, your Luger was made in the early 1920s.
"where it was made" - It was made by the Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werk (BKIW) which was formerly DWM (Deutche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken) but renamed BKIW after the war. It is a commercial piece as stated.
" ball park worth" - I do not usually assign values to guns that I have not seen personally (and sometimes not even then :)) but generally speaking your gun is a very common variety and while it does have collector value it is not particularly expensive. Being in .30 caliber it is more costly to shoot than a 9mm so it is not an economical shooter. Although your gun is not particularly scarce it appears to be in nice condition so if all matching (except for magazine) I would think something in the neighborhood of $900-1100 or so. Other folks could give you better estimates.

The stock is of artillery configuration and the attaching iron looks to be an original. To really evaluate the stock much better detailed photos are required. If an authentic original it has value but that determination rests on the quality of the photos you provide.
The holster is a commercial style probably made in the US and could have been made at any time -not particularly old or valuable.

I own an alphabet Luger that was made approximately 400 before yours. They are good shooters, IF you are a shooter.

That stock may be worth more than your pistol.
Thanks for sharing.

ok. thanks for the help

re-read my post #20, I have hopefully made it Newbie proof!:mad:

Value is closer to $750 for the pistol IMO; the stock could be in the HUNDREDS TOO, DEPENDS ON MORE/BETTER PICTURES!

:surr:I did misunderstand your response , sorry . I thought I had cleared that up but I GUESS I ONLY ACKKNOWLEDGED THAT IN THE NAVY THREAD, again , forgive me, my mistake.please keep in mind ,I know virtually nothing about lugers, so I ask that you bear with me and be patient.
I do appreciate all the help.

:surr:I did misunderstand your response , sorry . I thought I had cleared that up but I GUESS I ONLY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT IN THE NAVY THREAD, again , forgive me, my mistake.please keep in mind ,I know virtually nothing about Lugers, so I ask that you bear with me and be patient.
I do appreciate all the help.


I will post more pics of stock in near future . camera went dead and charging batteries now. so hopefully I can get them posted tonight. again , thank you, for the help.

As Ron mentioned, the "i" block of commercial Lugers was made in about 1922 by BKIW/DWM in Berlin. Your gun was made for export to the USA, as evidenced by the "GERMANY" import mark on the front. The complete serial number is "7913i". This was the first block of lugers made by DWM for commercial sales with the letter suffix. The prior block was in the 92000 serial number range - 5 numeric digits.

These guns, in .30 Luger caliber, are less valuable than military issued guns. Your Luger looks to be in pretty good condition except for considerable finish loss on the grip straps. One in higher condition would sell for $1000 to $1100 today. I think $750 is a bit low, so would estimate $850 for yours.

Don't store your gun in the holster up against the leather. It has been known to cause finish damage.

Make sure it's clean and lubricated. Avoid shooting it, as parts do break. If you must shoot it, replace the magazine - the wood bottom ones are fairly delicate and are known to break.

The BATFE rules mentioned earlier are important to respect, especially in today's political climate. They have interpreted as owning both a pistol and an attaching stock as "constructive possession" of a Short Barreled Rifle, which is a NFA firearm requiring special authorization just like a machine gun or silencer. There is a curio and relic exemption when you match the historically correct Luger with it's stock. You, unfortunately, do not have this.

Some people back in the 1960's were so worried about this issue that they had the stock lugs ground down off their Lugers, ruining them for collectors.

If I were you, I'd consider selling the stock since you can't use it and it is a liability.

thanks mrerick. appreciate the help.
good to know about not storing in holster, Iwill take your advise.
it has not been fired since about 1980 when my greatgrandfather gave it to my father. and probably will never be fired again, unless it is on the day ,I, in turn hand it down. everthing on that day was working properly. before that the last time it was fired was sometime around 1950, when my greatgranfather used it to kill a blacktail deer.he retired the gun and from hunting after that kill. he was 70 when he killed that deer and lived to be 101.before that, I have no idea of it's history,or how my g-granfather obtained it. but can say for certain ,it has only been fire a few times in last 65 years.

I am thinking you are correct abut getting rid of the stock as it just is not worth the headaches it could cause, though I am reluctant to do so , as it has become a family heirloom.perhaps I will give it to another family member and split them up.was also told it is possible to register and make legal, probably will look into that also.
hopefully I will get some better pics of it posted tonight.

not going to sell the gun, itself. worth is merely for insurance concerns, in case of fire, theft,ect... from what I have learned here, setting its worth at a 1000 or so should be sufficient. it is worth much more to me, personally,then that.
as a side note, I still have that rack from the deer he killed.just a little two point . not even really worth keeping but I can't bear to part with it.lol.

You could always buy an artillery luger and then you would be ok!:evilgrin:

hmmm.. that's an intriguing thought, something to consider. :thumbup:


being that it is a commercial luger, and stock fits it, would it even fit an artillery?if not idea is mute

The stock is NOT a commercial stock; it will fit(within tolerances) a military artillery luger!

You must think I'm really stupid; to tell you to buy an artillery if the stock would not fit.

And the point would be moot, not "mute".:rolleyes:

actually no , not at all. I did however,think you might be joking or pulling my leg. I'm the stupid one when it comes to Lugers, so I really did not know, and meant no offense.I only asked because it will fit the gun I own. you said artillery and navy would not interchange and I did not know if mine would.


I am however , beginning to believe you are a hostile person with anger issues though. and possibly an english teacher.:evilgrin:

so here are more pics of butt. about best I can do with camera I have.

and one more.

The stock attachment design for all the Lugers is basically the same. There are minor variations, but the Navy stocks would fit Artillery Lugers and visa-versa - it would just not be a GCA firearm at that point.

There was always a certain extent of hand fitting needed to get the stock attachment fit right. This is one reason that the stocks were originally numbered to the guns.

I unfortunately can't make out markings in your stock photos. If you can, try and take the pictures in shaded natural light using a tripod to eliminate camera shake, and the closeup setting on the camera to get sharp focus of any marking details. The self-timer will fire the camera without causing camera shake. Don't use flash.

Marc

No,Im not hostile, maybe a little impatient at times though.:evilgrin:

I do a problem with people who don't read what is written, and yes, I do believe that one should use the correct word and spell it correctly.

That said, I have spent more time than usual to try to help you understand what the requirements are for lugers and stocks.
Most times I'd recommend buying a book or reading all the posts here on stocks, which would not be a bad idea for your research.

Let me try again to make it clearer:

Original German made stocks for the Navy or Artillery luger have the same "iron"- the part on the stock, and all "lugs"-the part on the pistol are also the same(no matter the barrel length).
As I said they interchange within manufacturing tolerances.

The above facts mean that any stock will pretty much fit any pistol; has nothing to do with the Federal rules for use of a shoulder stock with a pistol.

The Navy stock(as I said is shorter, but it has the SAME iron, and will attach to a 4", 6", 8", or any bbl length original lug frame pistol;
The problem is the feds have decided that the Navy stock is only legal with the navy pistol!

That is why you can't have a Navy stock on an artillery or an artillery stock on a Navy; and why you can't use either stock with a 4" pistol or a 5.5" or 7.5" or 12" or anything other than an original Navy or Artillrery type luger.

Two different issues: one mechanical- is not a fitting problem as you know; the legal issue is why I pointed out that Navy and Artillery stocks are different.

Your artillery stock would not be legal on a Navy pistol, only on an artillery pistol.

Hence I recommended buying an artillery luger as an option.

Got it?:typing:

If I were a mean, hostile person, I would have told you to attach the stock to your 4" pistol and go to the range shooting!:eek:
That would have been wicked and hostile.

So instead, we all tried to keep you out of club Fed.

Peace!:cheers:

ok. thanks for your time.

I want to think I can see the remnants of the Crown over Script S on your stock; the iron looks good.

What it looks like if strongly impressed is below; with a much weaker impression below it.

I do believe your stock is an original
German military artillery stock.:thumbup: