Erma 22LR extractor
 

A friend of mine owns this 22 LR Erma and it needs an extractor? Is that hard to find?

it had some tape on it and I took it off in the later pictures.

And the biggest question is, are there different types of extractors for Erma's?

I found an illustration of what looks similar...Doesn't look too difficult to make...

But is the plunger and spring still in the breechblock??? The pic looks like it is...And I don't see anything to hold the extractor in place...Is there a hole for a retaining pin or something???

Also, Sturgess & Gortz show a purpose-barreled Luger with that conversion on a similar barrel...

Gents, I have some thoughts on this. This extractor system is the same as on the KGP series toggle pistols by Erma--the ones that are mostly steel, made in the 70's and 80's. In the pic I will attach, you can see that there is an area on the rear of the extractor just above where the little rounded "tail" is on the bottom. That small step is where the end of the plunger pushes, forced by the spring. Retention of the extractor body also depends on this step/plunger/spring pressure. It isn't a very robust setup, like a pivot pin, so it's easy to see how the extractor would pop out during operation. If the entire extractor is missing, then there wouldn't be anything to hold the spring and plunger in place, as Rich suggests.

This is a part that is scarce as hen's teeth these days, even if it is a match for the one pictured, from a KGP-68A. If the dimensions match up, it might just work, and I have one for sale. If not, you'll have to make one, which, though perhaps troublesome, is not impossible.

will look closer and take pictures of this toggle tomorrow

Wasn't that the piece that popped out of your Erma conversion when I first fired it??? :rolleyes:

Ah, yes - post #4 -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=33198

Might be will compare this one with mine

Dave,
thanks for the picture.
Looks easy enough to make- even with a hack saw and file if need be.

I have another original .22 kit coming from Tom, I'll take the extractor out and post it when it arrives.

If there is a market for these, I may have my machinist friend make some.

Sounds like everyone should have a spare- or two, if one shoots these.

I shoot from within a cardboard box with appropriate holes, until I have developed at least some confidence that the replacement extractor will stay in place! This practice has saved the day.

I have the opposite problem with the conversion kit I have--I cannot get the extractor out in order to clean. The breech block of the kit presents an opening in the front, from which the extractor's claw protrudes, and a vertical hole in the top. The blocks of the KGP pistols are open on top--a slot for the extractor body with a vertical hole at its rear. Both kits and KGP pistols house the spring and plunger in a horizontal hole that opens into the toggle pin hole, toward the rear of the block.

Theoretically, one would reach into the hole in the top of the block and press the plunger and spring back into their well/hole so they do not intrude into the vertical hole. The extractor can then rise so that its "tail" piece is clear of its well/hole, at which point the extractor body can be pulled out forward from its confines. I can get the plunger back, but the extractor body refuses to budge in this way. It does pivot up OK, to latch onto the round's rim.

Like a big refrigerator box? With two eyeholes and a muzzle slot? :p

I was thinking that since Ed's kit was mfg'd before high velocity/hyper velocity/sooper-dooper velocity .22 ammunition, it was the force of the breechblock/extractor slamming back that forced the extractor out. A stronger spring might help. Cleaning the crud out of the extractor cavity would help too.

Using only "target' .22LR ammunition would be a good idea as well. There's none available locally since the ban, which is why I tried whatever the LGS had left. :(

Maybe polishing the walls of the cavity would be beneficial too.

Dave, your attempt to remove the extractor sounds exactly like how I did it. IIRC, that plunger holds it down as well as in. No pin. The back has to kind of tilt up after the plunger is pushed back... :rolleyes:

David,
Just a thought. Looking at the shape of the extractor, once the plunger is retracted perhaps it is necessary to push the extractor slightly toward the rear in order to allow it to clear a small detent and then pivot up and out of the breech block?

On another note, the conversion in the original post has the rather scarce (I think?) adjustable rear sight. Other than the one I own I have not seen any other examples. Does anyone have a feel for how common or scarce they are?
Ron

Ron, my friend happened to point it out to me (adjustable sight) -

I have only owned this one - this is a close up of the toggle that a friend worked on, the other above is my friends that I need an extractor for - sounds like having one made is the best bet?

Rich, I imagine I have some standard velocity sitting around

"...special version of the Modell 30b..."

How did we ever live without the Internet??? :confused:

When I fired my kit, it would not function with std. velocity or "target" ammo.
I had to use normal "hi-speed" .22 lr; not stingers or hyper velocity, just "regular hi speed".

ok, so in the big picture - anyone have an extra extractor, or one that I could borrow and have a friend make me a copy or they could make a copy :)

Ed

You're welcome to borrow one of mine, Ed. First, let's check to see if the dimensions rule mine out as an example or not. In reference the KGP-68A extractor pic posted, the distance between the back of the extractor claw and the front side of the little leg at the back measures 0.220-0.223, representing the distance from the front of the hole in top of the block to the front face of the round's rim, inclusive of however much of the block is in between.

IIRC, the area at the rear-bottom is drum-shaped; wider than the flat portion of the extractor. When you push it in the hole, it drops down when it's in position. That's when the stepped plunger holds it in.

Looks like a lot more work than 'easy'...But I assume you're making it. I've adopted Maynard G. Kreb's work ethic. "Work?!?!"... :thumbup: :D

Take pics & keep us posted! :)

Easy doesn't mean quick!:)

Work!:eek:
Doesn't bother me at all since I'm retired; I can lay right next to it and take a nap.:evilgrin:

It doesn't mean cheap either! :thumbup:

OK, I'm looking at the extractor blown up and lightened; it seems to be flat with the rear bottom area rounded vertically [2nd pic] rather than horizontally [first pic]. That makes sense.

Different Extractors
 

From top to bottom: KGP 68A, Se 08 Kit, KGP 69

As I feared, the extractor from the conversion kit is not a match with either of the others.

The closeup of Ed's breech block does, indeed show the plunger stepped to fit its notch over the top rear of the extractor body once all is in place. If the plunger is there, then the spring is still there behind it. What is curious is the mass that is visible in the back, bottom area within the extractor well. I'll bet it's the remnants of the rounded "tail" of the extractor, and that it was broken off the from the extractor body! The plunger and spring are removed by moving them straight forward. The broken chunk must rise a bit--the length of the tail--before it, too, moves forward and out.

The conversion kit with a round hole in the block's top is the best one for maintaining the parts in place. The version with a slotted, open top will allow the extractor body to rise out of position if there is not constant spring pressure on it from behind. This is the same situation presented by both KGP pistols, and has proven to fail in this regard, on occasion.

I'm having some of each made, so check the WTS section if you wish to pre-order any of these 3 extractors. I also have a raft of extractors that fit the earlier cast Zamak models, La-, Ep-, or Et-22.

Ron, when I finally succeeded in removing mine, it became clear that a bit of precision is needed when holding the plunger back in its well. This will allow the extractor body to rise straight up for the "tail" to clear its hole at the back end, and then straight forward and out of the block. It's a regular hole, no sign of a detente anywhere--though it probably would have been a good feature in the design. Whatever us used to hold the plunger back must not protrude down beyond the top step of the plunger, to avoid restricting the upward travel of the back end of the extractor body.

Replacement/Reproduction Erma Extractors
 

Extractors are on the way to existence after one more meeting with the machinist on Monday, when I'll leave the last of the examples with him. Two pre-paid pre-orders we enough to tip the financial scale enough to get all three going and still have the ability to pay my guy for his work.

(If this works out, I'll have him pencil-taper another regular barrel--this time for the "Ermarican" Eagle I'm making out of a KGP 69, Erma's last .22 lr toggle pistol. Next step is bluing that barrel and upper after the lathe and mill work is complete. I'll also need to whip up another set of strawed small parts and modified safety lever. To finish, I will have the Great Seal laser-engraved over the chamber--deep enough, I hope, to accept some white dial wax so it shows.)

A New Litter
 

The Erma extractors are coming home to roost. I bailed out the first batch, two dozen for the KGP-68A. After a little smoothing of the sharp corners, they're ready for heat treating to 55RC hardness. They'll be very dark blue after that, so further finishing will be unnecessary. I'll test a few examples to make certain they run OK, then it's off to Gunbroker for these babies!

Next up will be the extractors for the SE 08 kit, which I anticipate in about a week. Stay tuned!

David, are these extractors going to be available to Forum members? I have PM'm you twice with no response.. Hugh

There is another thread where David offered them for sale to members. A couple of us took advantage of his "pre-production"
pricing!:burnout:

I also read that thread and ask at that time to order two of the top extractors in the photos showing what he had and one of the one in the middle. Was looking for an address to send check to but never heard back... Post #5 of the original thread "Pre-Order Your Erma Extractor Today " Hugh

Hugh,

Somehow your PMs never made it to my inbox here on the site. Everyone can skip the extra step and contact me directly at ithacaartist@gmail.com --which is also the PayPal Account. For snail mail of personal check or USPS money order, my address is 6340 Carman Road, Trumansburg, NY 14886

KGP-68A extractors (top one in the pic) will be $40 on G.B., but $20 for forum members,
KGP-69 (bottom in pic) $40 on G.B., $20 forum members
SE 08 kit extractors $45 on G.B., $25 forum members

$5 per order shipping, regardless of number of extractors.

I'm wondering if this biz belongs more in the WTS section. Maybe it will work if I post there, with a link to the post in this thread at the point that it's hijacked? I intended to do the WTS after all three variations are completed and available, but I'll do it tonight and edit as necessary later. *OK, I've done that. Let's continue the business part there http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=35263 but still comment here if necessary, so as to abide by the WTS rules.*

I hardened six of the completed KGP-68A parts today, and they are drawing down in the toaster oven as I type, being heated to about 500 degrees before slow cooling. I'll try some in operation tomorrow. I don't think I'll have to do a lot of testing because they are very uniform, crisp, almost-exact copies of the original and they should work just fine.

As I posted previously, the parts next out of the gate will be for the kit, in about a week. The final ones for the .22 KGP-69 should be bringing up the rear about a week after that.

David

Received my order yesterday.
Thanks my friend.
Larry

Dave, my three extractors arrived yesterday. They look good, thank you, Hugh