Otto Sindel holster
 

This holster is part of a collection I'm going to sell for a customer. I have been told that it is a police holster, and that Otto Sindel holsters were not sold to anybody but the police. The guy I talked to said that it would bring around $400 on eBay, and he offered me $350. This holster is a good as they come, so does that sound like a reasonable deal to you guys?

top holster!
 

Hi Olle, worth lots more than $350.00..:eek:.. drop me a note, I'd like to have it as well?......GT

Otto Sindel Holster
 

I had the misfortune to buy a Otto Sindel Holster recently that looked in similar condition, rough finish to inner flap & found it couldn't fit either a mag or luger - seller couldn't argue that one. Doesn't take long to check and be sure.

OK..Since this is in an open discussion thread and not a "for sale" thread..I have serious suspicions that this holster is a fake. There are a couple of things I would like to see that I cannot from the picture shown but there are important issues that just ain't right.

This is not a for sale thread and the holster is not even mine, so I would be happy to take pictures of any details you want to see. The owner gave me another 10-15 holsters yesterday, so I'm hoping to learn something about holsters as well.

Olle, Yes thank you. I would love to closely inspect the front closure stud. Top, side, in profile.
What concerns me a great deal is the stitching abnormalities I see. Let's take one area that bothers me. The two stitching lines to the bottom right of the left belt loop. These two lines are what hold in the pull-up strap. I would expect to see VERY robust doubled up thread here. I don't see it. I see a single stitch. I cannot tell you how many of these stitching lines I have removed over the years to take out broken lifting straps but, it has been many hundreds. I have NEVER seen one like I see here. It's just not how these were stitched on genuine German period holsters. So it's a handful of these abnormalities that concern me. It is a detail that would be easily overlooked by someone.

For what it is worth, someone is specifically faking the Otto Sindel brand.

http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Leather-.../dp/B00AER6490

The "Otto Sindel Berlin 1941" seems to be one of the more common marking on the reproductions, and that is one of the reasons why I posted it here to begin with. I'll try to post some detail pictures later, and I hope these will reveal what we actually have here.

I can't say yet if the holster we are discussing IS a fake? IF it is..it's a good one. It has me concerned but it has enough right that it's hard to tell without diving deeper into it. Especially with just photo's to work from. The ideal would be to have it in hand with 4-5 known original Otto Sindel holsters of the same date to compare. As it is I am relying on experience. What I have seen over 20 years and what I expect to see. When a mint example appears it SHOULD have the normal stitching characteristics..when it doesn't..it's time to get out the spyglass.

As Doug points out there ARE Fake Otto Sindel Sindel holsters on the market. They pale in comparison to Olle's. I have noticed fake holsters coming out of China are getting much better.

I ,for one, would never purchase this holster at any price. Bill

Bill Lyon is an opinion I deeply respect.

+1 on Bill Lyon's opinion.

Jerry, you are our "go to" guy for holsters and even you have doubts. I am no holster expert, and I have examined quite a few, but no where near as many as you. From first view of the photos, I have had a gut feeling that the stitching and some other details just don't look right to me either... The leather looks too new on the outside, and yet aged on the inside... ?????

I think the horrible stitching would be a dead giveaway on that one. :eek: Not even close to the one in question.

The outside does have age to it, it just doesn't have much wear. The black has faded in some places (I tried to capture this in one of the pictures), and really, the inside aging is not much more than some fine dry cracking and some marks from a pistol. It doesn't look artificially aged, just... well, "old", like it was put away 60 years ago. It smells like "old holster" as well, not that new leather smell you would expect from a reproduction.

Anyway, here are some more pictures for further study:

....and some more details:

Olle, Thank you! Excellent photo's! I appreciate it. This is getting to be a real head scratcher!
The closure stud looks excellent. Lathe turned. Just as one would expect on an original. The thread is still disconcerting. It looks very much like cotton and not linen. The sections I would expect to see double stitches have not improved..where the pull-up strap is sewn. I am torn. There are several other areas of concern but I am beating you up for no good reason because I just can't nail it down. It has some very good reasons why it is and some very good reasons why it isn't.

Would cotton thread glow under a ultraviolet light?

Jerry,

No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition, and this might be that thing you can't put your finger on. If that's the case, I can't say that I blame you.

Even a slightly used holster without any wear does change in appearance, shape etc, and there are really not many original holsters in this condition to compare with. I looked at it again this afternoon, and while trying a gun in it I realized that the rub marks on the flap are from the leather it rubs against when it's closed. I can't see much of gun wear inside it, so maybe the lack of deformation from use is one of those details that bug you?

As you already know, holding a holster in your hand so you can look at it, touch it, feel it, sniff it, lick it etc. is totally different from looking at pictures, and this is why I'm thoroughly confused now. It looks old, feels old, smells old and I just cannot believe that somebody would be able to age a holster to look and feel like this. Let alone making a holster of this quality at a price that beats an original.

Like I have already said, it's not my holster so I don't have a dog in the fight. Now it's just a matter of my own curiosity and education, so I would really like to know what else you can see. Just let me know if you need more pictures, I would be happy to provide them. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I might even send it to you for examination. ;)

No disrespect, but I think one of the reasons you suspect a fake is the condition. Olle..Let me assure you, you could not be more wrong in thinking this. I have seen and handled MANY mint condition original holsters and owned many more. My thoughts on this one are purely technical and practical. I am not at all awed by it's condition.
On the other hand you are also correct. I suspect ANY holster in this condition simply for the reason that in 1941 the Germans not only made holsters but used them, NEEDED them. While it is possible to survive in this condition..it is rare enough to be suspicious on the face of it.
My analysis and the opinion of others that I respect point to something wrong. This holster is NOT all it should be. Of that I am certain.

Ed, No..cotton is a natural material and will not glow like synthetics do. The thread on Olle's holster is hairy where it shouldn't be. Ends sticking out here and there. Either it's cotton or it's linen but linen only gets this way after being very wet. This holster shows no evidence of having been wet..Dry linen just doesn't do this.

Just let me know if you need more pictures. Olle, yes! Can you get a closeup of the inside back panel where the stitching for the belt loops are? This is another area that will tell me more..
Thanks..I appreciate it!

Not sure if it would and I don't have a UV light handy, but I took a few pics with my digital microscope (get you one of these guys, you'll love it: http://www.amazon.com/Carson-Zorb-Di.../dp/B002PCOM46) to see if I could spot any differences in the fibers.

The pictures were taken in places where the stitches were a bit frayed so you can see the separate fibers, and pic 1 is "the suspect", pic 2 is a cey 41 which is no doubt original. Color and appearance seem to be very similar, so can you guys see anything out of the ordinary here?

Olle..Amazing! Yes..it appears to be linen.

Jerry,

I don't doubt your judgement one bit, I just want to make sure that we get the "too good to be true" factor out of the way. Not too long ago, I bought a stone cold mint 3-lever slotted Radom VIS P.35 for $500, just because the seller and I both thought it looked way too good to be an original finish. Once I got it home so I could disassemble it and inspect it more closely, I found that it was not too good to be true. Big mistake on his behalf, but good for me. ;)

Getting a good shot of the inside will be a bugger, but I'll try my best.

Olle, Yes, I understand completely. Most people who know me know that I tell it like I see it. I have no reason not to. Like a scientist I look for details that will lead me to answers. If I am wrong I will be the first to say so. As painful as the process is..it's what we have. Thanks for your help..like you say, a hands on inspection is always better but often enough pictures work. I think back not too long ago actually and this kind of discourse would have been impossible or take months!

Getting a good shot of the inside will be a bugger..all I really need is a clear shot of ONE stitching area. I want to see how the stitching has been done. Way before 1941 the German Saddlers left the stitching lay flat on the surface. Pounded flat after installation it was fairly safe from chafing. Later they went to gouging a line to bury the stitching somewhat..keeping it away from damage. Then they went all the way and the belt loop stitching was completely hidden away under a slit in the front panel. I would expect by 1941 the stitching to be completely hidden..but I see some in one photo you posted. A closer look will confirm.

Jerry/John. Thanks for the kind words. I do not profess to be a holster expert. But I do have holsteritis. This one bothers me enough that as I said, I would not buy it. Just one of those feelings. Might be a big mistake on my part but I have been there before. Jerry you da man. What ever you say I believe. I do not believe anyone has seen and worked on the numbers you have. Will be interesting to see how the story ends. Bill

Jerry,

I sure don't have a problem with an open discussion. I usually call a spade a spade, don't know how many times I have been it trouble for it. Have even lost a few good jobs because of it. :D

So before we resort to a C-14 test, here's a couple of shots showing the top seams of the belt straps. I can't see that they have been pounded flat, but the ends of the threads are hidden, the stitching is tight and you can't feel much of it when you run your finger across the seams.

There is actually one thing that bothers me about the idea of this being a reproduction (or fake, if you will)... The whole idea of a reproduction is to produce something that resembles the original, but at a fraction of the cost. I'm fully aware of the low labor cost in the far east, but how much would it cost to reproduce something like this and at this level? You would have to do a lot of research, then get the right kind of leather, the right weight, color and quality, reproduce the hardware etc, etc and that all adds up very quickly. Factor in the shipping, middle man cost, marketing etc, and it leaves you wondering if it really makes sense to make a no holds barred reproduction of this kind of holster. The fakers usually go for the big bucks, so this feels like faking $1 bills.

Olle..Yes, in a PC World the truth is the first casualty. I hear what you're saying. I will say this however..the last mint holster I sold went for $8-900. If this one you have were in actuality original beyond doubt I would expect it to fetch close to $600 minimum. That being said..this holster makes me a believer then kicks me in the nads! The inside belt loop stitches are amateurish. With no doubt in my mind I can call them bad. This late in the game, 1941, Otto Sindel was a Premier Luger holster maker. They made some of the finest holsters the Germans could produce and they did it right. The stitching you took excellent photo's of is simply laying right on the surface. I don't know what this holster is or where it came from or who made it but I do know what it isn't. There is NO WAY this is German original period 1941. These last two photo's are the nail in the coffin for me.
I have said it many times before..I find no joy in these pronouncements. Being the bearer of these opinions often makes me unpopular. I would much rather declare it is a rare and valuable original..but in this case unfortunately I don't think so.

I am not the end all of experts. It's just an opinion from a humble student. I DO welcome dissenting opinions..I would love to hear what others may think.

The master has spoken. I agree on the inside loop threads. I realize there are some 41 holsters with the full manufacturers name. However codes were introduced in 1940? For the record Otto Sindel made many military holsters and was not limited to Police holsters. I have owned a couple of these. I will say whomever made this did good work. It is hard to fool the master (Jerry). Bill

Just an observation on the "cost" analysis, these reproduction holsters are sold for $25 post paid on ebay, and the one I posted the link to- with a little effor-t could "pass" for original to all but an expert, IMO.

So the "cost/benefit isn't there" analysis doesn't hold water for me.

I'll defer to Jerry on the construction analysis; maybe he can look at the links posted for similarities to the known reproductions.

Original? wwii german 1941 police p08 luger very rare waffenamt holster
 

Ebay description - ORIGINAL WWII GERMAN 1941 POLICE P08 LUGER VERY RARE WAFFENAMT HOLSTER

Here's the 1941 Otto Sindel I took long consideration over before I bought. Suffice to say when a magazine couldn't be slid in and the killer as I couldn't fit a luger in & flap down was the decider. It went straight back as a return. Here's the images, Brendan.

Yours and the others I've seen on line have a pretty pitiful Eagle.

I just picked up an auction buy this am. What should it have but a 1938 Otto Sindel holster.

I'll do some pictures and start a new thread with this for sure repro.

Brendan, The holster you show and the one Olle has could be brothers! There are MANY amazing similarities. BOTH have the incorrect interior belt loop stitching..It looks like these were both made by the same entity.

I am sure everyone knows this, but here is the inside loop threads Jerry is talking about.

1. Thread exposed
2. Thread exposed but flattened
3. Grooved thread
4. Hidden in slots

Bill, FANTASTIC photo's! This helps a great deal, thank you.

Thanks Bill, perfect examples!

Channelisles, spot on, thanks for your pictures.

Jerry,

I sure appreciate the detailed analysis and the explanations, now I just have to bring it back to the owner and tell him that I'm not selling this one.

I must say that it had me completely fooled. The craftsmanship is outstanding, the leather quality is great, and the aging (including the fine spider cracking) is 100% convincing. This is one of the reasons why I only collect the guns. They could be refinished, but at least you can be sure that they are not modern day reproductions!

Olle
Thank you for starting this thread. I am sure we all learned something. You probably saved someone $600+. Thanks. Bill

Olle, did you ever check to see how a pistol and magazine fit in this holster?

Yep, tried a gun and a magazine last night, and the holster fits both. The gun only needs some light pressure to get it all the way home, and comes up with a light tug on the strap. The mag pocket was a bit tighter (seems to be pressed out of shape a bit from storage), but I believe this holster would fit like a glove after some break-in. Just adds to the mystery, doesn't it? :)

Olle..Just adds to the mystery, doesn't it? OK..Thanks. So close..yet so far.

Being the village idiot when it comes to holsters(remember I baked one!:crying:, I'm kind of liking Ollie's for real.

Main reason is the ageing; I don't see how this could be done to duplicate the points Ollie mentioned that are cracked or spidered; and the closure stud sure looks aged to me.

It does look too good to be true, and does not have the expected attributes that Jerry points out; and I wholly agree with Bill that I would not pay much more than repro price for it,
but it does nag at me.....:confused:

Another 1941 Otto Sindel Holster
 

Here's another 1941 Otto Sindel Police holster currently on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-GERMAN-...YAAOSwV-RXEt7p

Over stamp on the manufacturer and date - I've not seen that before. Coming on the back of 2 same condition holsters available over the last year - Threads exposed again on a late holster - leaves me cold.