Auction Luger
 

Seems to have both sear and mag safety??

Auction Arms.

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?ItemNum=2597380





Ted's Luger Strawing Service

Re: Auction Luger
 

Ted, It is very unuseual to see a mag safety left installed. In fact I have never seen one. This seems to be there but hard to see with the grips in the way. Jerry Burney

Naw, under magnification the mag safety is clipped
 

but the sear safety is present...


-John

Re: Naw, under magnification the mag safety is cli
 

Look at the halo around the 66 on the toggle rear...

Tom

Re: Naw, under magnification the mag safety is cli
 

do you think there has been some photoshop work done here? if so, it's a very careless mistake.

Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole!! (EOM)
 

WATCH OUT! Sig380 is a ..!
 

.... Text disappeared

Don't know about scam, but . . .
 

wouldn't touch his auctions with a 10 foot pole!!!

Edward, Hearsay evidence of wrongdoing...
 

is not permitted on this forum by the owner & operator.


While I can understand your motives and intent is to warn the users of this board about someone you may suspect of shady dealings, Unless the bad experience with this seller was personally your own, please don't post it here...


All persons with an interest in Lugers are welcome on this board. but I urge you to please read the Forum Decorum document (there is a link at the top of the Message Board Page, or you will find it under General Information) for further information about rules and terms of use...


Thanks for understanding...


regards,


John Sabato

Technical Inspection of photographs reveals
 

Looks okay to me!
 

Hi,

The Weimar Lugers are different than the Imperial Lugers and can be either reworked of Imperial Lugers or of new manufacture. The number placement, style, and size can be a combination due to when they were put on. When you start considering number placement and "halo's" on these reworks, and comparing them to Imperial Lugers, you are mixing "apples and oranges", so to speak. This partucular Luger was reworked, more than likely twice by the police. You do not know if the TOGGLE is the original one, or just pieces of the original one. The "66" could have been put on some of the parts anywhere from 1919 to 1933, so it would be very possible to even have a different style and still be correct for this variation. Weimar police Lugers have a lot of commercial Lugers re-routed to the police and then numbered in the military style, so you see a "halo" on a lot of the numbers, which is absolutely correct for these models.

Change your policy
 

Hi John and John,

Although I see your concerns, I feel this forum is suppose to be to share Luger information, new purchases, new information, all Luger related information, including bad experiences. I'm not a lawyer and actually do not have much use for them, smiling, but understand the concerns about law suits and libel suits, slander, and ect., but really feel if you are going to allow posts on praising dealers and recommending certain business people, then you should allow negative feedback also. Personally, I do not think it is right to promote certain people or dealers just because one is a good friend of them, or has had a satisfactory business dealing with them. Not all dealings are positive no matter how good one's reputation is. I have no problem when a question is asked to give the poster a name, but I do not think it is correct for the Forum to basically sponsor, support, suggest, recommend, and promote certain people or business's, and then not allow others to post feedback which suggests a different reaction. Isn't the Forum libel in some way if the people they sponsor, or recommend, and as a direct result of this, are brought into some sort of litigation? In this thread, you have responses saying this gun is not correct, which makes you in some way libel, doesn't it, if it doesn't sell? I'm confused, as it is considered okay to tell someone a gun is a fake, or messed with, or not correct, but not okay to say the businessman's name? You're the boss John, I respect that, and how you want it will be the way it is, just wanted to give you a slightly different opinion on this matter. - bill m

Re: Change your policy
 

I am inclined to agree with my friend and cowboy buddy Bill. While I count as personal friends some of the dealers frequently mentioned on this board, it does appear that a more balanced approach could be possible. All of the auction bbs have a feed back mechanism; perhaps the forum moderator/owner should consider such an option. I believe we have a two fold obligation to those newby collectors entering this fascinating area of collecting history: recognition for those who have treated us exceptionally well and identification of those who have proven by their deeds that they are unscrupulous.


FWIW, the Bayonet Collectors Network works as a group to "encourage" less than fully satisfactory vendors to make good by sending many, many emails to any vendor who has been less than honest with a member and they have never had a legal problem.


FWIW, my zwei pfennig


Tom

That won't happen.
 

The policy isn't going to change. I think most people - including lawyers - understand the difference between posting substantiated opinions based on first hand knowledge ("Joe Schmoe ripped me off..and here is what happened.." (and being responsible to share both sides of the story)) rather then diatribes such as the earlier post which was nothing more then a "rant" on what someone thinks they may know based what they were told third hand - or even read on another web forum... Give me a break.


This isn't the "National Enquirer" of gun discussion forums, Bill - this is a forum to discuss Lugers - and if someone wants to post second-hand "he's a scum bag cause my friend told me that a friend of his...", let them do it elsewhere. If someone has a good or bad first-hand experience with a buyer/seller - feel free to post it here - but be ready to share all the details â?? even the details that may not support your side. Such is the nature of public posting.


In so far as all your questions regarding liability, they are terrific questions, and have been debated throughout the State Supreme courts and Federal Court systems for years. However, operating a website in a manner consistent with it's stated content policies and even with the implied and guaranteed protection under the Federal Governments CDA - it's a lengthy subject. Needless to say, having run interactive, non-moderated sites going on to 5 years - I'm probably pretty much aware of the liability issues involved.

Re: I agree with John
 

It is a priveledge for us to use this forum only granted by John so I think we need to play by his rules. Must not be too bad, look how it grows, lots of folks are migrating to this environment and forum because we are polite. HE KNOW BEST how far his butt is stuck out for us when it comes to this stuff, he manages tons of site so HE KNOWS OF WHAT HE SPEAKS, I doubt he wants to be constrictive, but he must have these rules to protect not only the site but all that partcipate.

If you want to say something bad about a dealer or person, send a private email TO ANYBODY THAT FREQUENTS the forum, you can get your message out and John is not held responsible. Think about it, John is doing the right thing IMO. Thor



Ted's Luger Strawing Service

Re: I agree with John
 

I think keeping this He said or She said stuff out of our little Luger Town, is the best way to do things! It keeps untrue information from spreding like a Brush Fire that could burn Luger Town to the ground!!! Thats My opinion.


Best regards,Brandon

To your second point...
 

about giving opinions on what is "good" and "bad". I think your said: "...In this thread, you have responses saying this gun is not correct, which makes you in some way libel, doesn't it.."


Not at all... You see the "same" auction I do - along with the same photographs. While in this case, on this Luger - I agree with you that it looks correct - I drew that "opinion" by seeing what you saw. We have the same "reference point" - to have similar or dissimilar conclusions. Anyone can express their opinion about that same reference point. It's one of the neat things about a Forum like this.


However, as I stated previously in my other post - since I'm not a "friend of a friend who heard it from.." - we don't and can't share the "reference point" - so its apples and oranges.


Finally - this Board has no "sponsors". Iâ??m not sure where you got the idea it had â??sponsorsâ?�?. Sponsors imply that the financial burden is shared, or that I bill people/companies/businesses to offset the monthly costs. There are no "sponsors" (unless you include "me", as I pay for this each month). In fact - do you see a single banner ad on this site - anywhere? Nope. Does anyone pay to be a "member"? Nope. Do businesses pay money for the right to be recognized here? Not that I'm aware of - and I'd probably know. We have no â??sponsorsâ?�.

Message to John D
 

I for 1 and Surely many many more Really Appreciate all you do around here! We wouldn't have a Luger Forum around if it wasen't for people like You and Dok! Keep up the good work!!


Many thanks,Brandon

Re: Message to John D
 

John D & Dok;

Ya'll being too d*** polite. Tell them to go somewhere else if they don't like the way you run it. Or better yet, just block em out.What can they do about it? They'll catch on after a while.


Roadkill

Re: Looks okay to me!
 

I'm sure glad Tom and bill m stepped up to the plate in defense of the subject Luger. I had looked at the pictures repeatedly and found nothing wrong with the pistol.

Just another view point
 

John,

I said earlier that you were the boss and I respected your opinion on this. The way you want it, will be the way it is. In no way was I trying to criticize you, but only sharing some concerns that I had with you and the rest of the Forum. I'm sure I am not the only one with some of these opinions. This was never intended to be something personal towards you, but only concerns and suggestions. I'm sorry I used the word "sponsor" and thank you for correcting me. Recommended was more correct. My intentions were honest and sincere though, and only another viewpoint to bring to your attention.

Re: Just another view point
 

I appreciate your reply Bill..


Honestly - I do take this personally, though, as it is my butt that gets served with the court papers, and the cost of attorneys and even the threat of litigation is from my check-book.


Also - I'm sure your view is shared by others - but I'll ask them to be in "my shoes" for a bit. Run a website that has no accountability for posts and I'll tell you that only two things will happen - (1) either they are being sued, or (2) they will be sued. It's an unfortunate commentary on a lot of aspects to society to being responsible for our actions and the aftermath.


Anyway - I do definitely agree with you about the Luger that started this thread


As for dealers that are "recommended" - yep, I agree with you there as well.. Recommended is probably a better term - but that would come from the opinions of the folks on this Forum - which is what it is all about to begin with...


Best to you...


John D.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
 

Since it seems I have started quite a debate, I will throw in my personal experience to make it "valid first hand experience". Sig380 has a P.38 AC40 code pistol. He claimed the finish was excellent but then when further pressed, admitted it had quite a bit of finish missing. I then asked for his phone number to question him further on the piece as I thought it was a good deal if the info was correct. He completely evaded my request and replied with "I hope your having a good day......I REALLY hope your having a good day". Sounding like the response of a child. He only other thing he added to that was he would be gone on vacation for the weekend and the auction ended sunday. I think he didn't want to answer anymore questions and that was his way of telling me. I used another email address and emailed him on Sat. and somehow he managed to reply even though he was on "vacation". The auction ended with no bids and I again emailed him for his phone number and told him I wanted to purchase it. He wrote back with "Ok....thanks" but no phone number. I again emailed him and he replied with a phone number and "sorry its sold". Later on, I saw the same pistol appear on auctionarms.com under his same screen name. I think he stopped double posting because he was threatened with getting the boot but he may still be doing it. Just do a search on the subguns.com board of inquiry and judge for yourself. Sorry John & John, didn't mean to break the rules but just wanted to warn all the new and young collectors just starting out like me to be careful and not get taken.

Hi Johnny...!!!
 

Now - that's a terrific post - and what it's all about....!!! THANKS!!!


Would I watch out for someone who does this sort of thing? You bet - and thanks for the heads up!!!

Re: Just another view point
 

I definately agree with Johns take on the subject, but healthy debate like Tom and Bill M brought up is also good!


I like to hear that a dealer is a difficult guy, but at the same time understand the legal ramifications unless the person says, they did this and this to ME, and here is the story.


Ed

Let me jump in here on one of bill m's points...
 

At one point the Forum used to "recommend" dealers. In fact we called them Preferred Vendors. Gave them a "gold star" even in the Links & Resources section. But bill m's point about balance and fair reporting soon became pretty obvious.


I became acutely aware that many people had had bad dealing with even the most respected of dealers, and that this was normal business events, not all deals go well, even under the best of times.


It was also obvious that we couldn't act as the "dealings Police", while on the one hand we were saying "This guy is great", but on the other we were NOT reporting all the bad reports we had...


So we dropped the the "Preferred VEndor" stuff, and now take the position that each person must do his own due diligence. And we will support good and BAD "first hand" reports, we will oppose random rumours.


John D. performs a stellar but thankless task, and it's up to us all to support him in every way possible. Not only because the Forum depends on it, but it's also the right thing to do.


Dok

Re: Let me jump in here on one of bill m's points.
 

Excellent post Dok. One person can give a glowing report about a dealer while another has had a bad experience. Do you believe one, both, or neither? I would only add that if the deal starts off bad, there is little chance that it is going to get better. Why try to continue a deal that stinks from the beginning?

GOOD ADVICE!!!!!
 

When comments are positive say anything you like. When negative be careful to stay with facts only. Do not make personal comments. Character assassination whether deserved or not leads to disaster, legally and morally.

Re: Let me jump in here on one of bill m's points.
 

I am very much in agreement with "Der Dok",

John is providing us with a place to discuss Lugers,

He gains nothing except the good will and personal good feeling of opening "His House" and parlor to allow us as His Guests to have a place for discussion.

We Owe Him The Respect of treating his territory as we would expect others to treat ours,

and that means that we should never expose him to be legally harrassed for allowing negative and baseless postings.

(That is to say "If You Say It, Stand behind it with Your Reputation"), Do not place John D in the middle of your argument with someone, as you hide behind "They Said".

Nothing personal or intended to point at anyone in particular.

They say's, cannot be checked for accuracy,

"I said" Can!

My $0.03 worth.

ViggoG