Advice Needed
 

I have an old PO8 in cal. .30 Luger, manufactured about 1926. Having trouble with: 1. failure to feed the new shell after ejecting the old casing, resulting in a jam, usually with the new round jammed in a little above the breech; 2. smokestacking of the extracted round, again causing a jam. These problems don't appear all the time, but more than they should. Do I have a magazine problem? Some other problem? Very grateful for any guidance or advice. Thanks......CF

The failure to feed problem is most likely a magazine problem. Instead of using the original magazine try an aftermarket magazine. Those made by Mec-Gar are the best.

Stovepiping in a Luger is usually the result of limp-wristing. Hold the pistol more tightly and do not let your wrist "break" with the shot.

--Dwight

The other piece of the equation is the ammo.

What are you using?

I would try Dwights advice first to try and eliminate the magazine. Get a MecGar. If that doesn't solve it the next step is Don's advice..ammo. Old? New? Brand?

Make sure it's also been cleaned and properly lubricated.

The magazine is the most likely cause, but if a new MecGar magazine doesn't solve the problem, consider replacing the recoil spring. if the recoil spring is the problem, you might see finish damage or peening on the rear of the frame where the rear toggle hits it. Ensure that you get the right spring, as the .30 Luger DWM Alphabet Commercial uses a different one than the 9mm and other Lugers.

I don't have my copy of Sturgess right now, but it specifies the correct recoil spring if you need one.

Marc

Stove piping is "weak" ammo, or too strong a main spring, IMO.

Trying different ammo is quick; anyway- won't hurt to find out what the OP is using.

Like most problems,there may be more than one contributor- lubrication, magazine, and/or limp-wristing!

VERY grateful for these notes. My mag. is an oldfashioned wooden-base, and I'm not sure it fits well. Its spring is very stiff; it's a struggle to load six rounds. I would start by trying a new MecGar mag., but here I'm ignorant. The mags I find online are for 9mm pistols. Can I use one in my 7.65 mm Luger, then? I hadn't known that. On ammo, I was having a lot of trouble with Fiocchi a couple of years old, found that new Privi Partizan (Serbian, from Lucky Gunner) worked much better. I will be more aware of limp-wristing. I don't think the problem is from lack of cleaning or lube. I guess it makes sense to try the above solutions before getting into replacing the recoil spring. Thanks to all for the prompt, gracious, and expert guidance. CF

CF:
9mm and .30 cal. mags are interchangeable.
If you are using an original wood base mag. I'd suggest you stop. That wood will crack under spring tension.
Keep us posted.
dju

Yes...30 Luger or 9MM the base of the cartridge is the same and any Luger magazine is interchangeable. A 9MM will work fine. This is one reason there is not usually any caliber designation on Luger magazines.

Castle,

All modern ammo I have measured is much too short to regularly fire a fully loaded magazine (8rounds) without jamming.

Proper OAL is very important to the proper functioning of a Luger. The proper OAL for round nose ammo is 1.173 inches.

If you handload, you can all but eliminate the jamming problems. However, with the commercial stuff, there is always a chance for jams.

I would try a new Mec-Gar magazine, however, just to establish a baseline.

Just some thoughts.


Sieger

I have a .30 caliber DWM. Using its original magazine, it always fails on feeding next round. Simply not usable. I bought a Mec-Gar magazine, the problem goes away immediately. Luger is a good gun, but sensitive to ammo, and sensitive to magazine spring strength.

Castle,
in the case of Luger mags, a stronger spring is usually better- you may try some lube in the magazine itself, sometimes they get really dirty and the follower doesn't want to move freely.

Ammo- Just a few months ago, I sold a well functioning .30 commercial to a board member(could have been the other board), worked 100% for me and the guy wanted a shooter.
Sent it to him and it would not function for him, no way no how- "same" Fiocchi ammo!
ONly difference was 600 or 800 miles.

Guy is a competition shooter, we discussed it, but it was not limp wristing.

I finallly sent him some of the box of .30 luger Fiocchi I was using.

Problem went away, 100% function again.

Difference in ammo- mine was RNJSP he was using ball, Fiocchi load both.
Fiocchi give the two loads, same bullet weight, one just soft point, two different velocity ratings-
you would think the 10 fps difference they give would be irrelevant, but it just means they are performing differently for some reason.

Since then, I have read on another related thread that Fiocchi has changed their loading in the last some years, so the ammo may be or likely is different lot to lot, or certainly ammo a couple years old to now.

Moral of the story- you problem sounds exactly the same- it is likely the Ammo!:soapbox:

Gentlemen, very much obliged for all this information and advice. Maybe of interest: the Fiocchi ammo. with which my Luger hardly worked at all was 93 grs, FMJ. The PPU ammo, which works far better but is still not perfect, is 6.0 g, 93 grs, also FMJ. I guess I will first try a new mag. I will report results. I hope the pistol can be brought around, as it's a good old weapon: DWM, all numbers and partial numbers matching, good stocks, and surprisingly accurate (that's when it fires). Thanks again to all......CF

Some of the old Lugers can be a real challenge to get them to run reliably, but it can be done if you are persistent. There are a good group of folks on this forum with a load of experience with shooting Lugers, and are more than happy to help.

First you need to start with the basics.

(1) clean and well lubed....you state that has been done.

(2) purchased a good quality magazine.....Meg-Gar is #1

(3) try different brands of FMJRN ammo.


Let's see how that works out for you, and then go from there as we have the baseline for your Luger.

Report. I now have a Mec-Gar magazine, obviously well made, and seems a better fit for my 1920s P08 than the old one. Unfortunately, performance not improved. The most consistent problem seems to be failure to strip and load the next round, which jams just above the breech. I've been using PPU ammo. I guess I will try to find different .30 Luger cartridges with the new mag., hoping that the gun will respond. Any members' thoughts very welcome, and thanks for all your help......CF

You are "down" to replacing the recoil spring; IF, the bolt is recoiling enough to be behind the rim of the
next cartridge in the magazine.

If not, it is still the ammo.

Try this: Cup your left hand under the base of the mag. as you are shooting, using the left hand to force the magazine up to the top of the stack higher than it would normally hang.
Reason: Sometimes the magazine catch gets worn and the magazine "hangs" too low to feed correctly.
dju

I have ordered a box of Fiocchi .30 Luger SJSP shells for trial. The idea from dju about supporting the magazine while shooting also seems to me to have promise; there is noticeable play in the magazine as it seats in the frame. So I'll try attending to that. Have run out of ammo for the present, so can't test today. If anything interesting develops, I'll report. Meantime, thanks again to all......CF

Some members here have had real good luck with the Fiocchi JSP ammo. My experience with that ammo in MY 30 Luger handguns has been dismal to say the least. The Fiocchi 92gr FMJRN has functioned wonderfully for me and my guns. These rascals can be/are ammo sensitive. Your mainspring/recoil spring may be the culprit, but the ammo test with the Fiocchi will help with the diagnosis.

Castle

I think by now you've already obtained all the necessary advices, one more thing, never use old wooden base mags, buy a modern Mec Gar mag surely you'll find a not expensive one that will last you for yonks.

Best


Sergio

sergio, what is your unit of measure for a yonk ?? :thumbup:

Hi,

It is normal for a Luger magazine to hang low in the pistol. One to two mm is not unusual at all. In fact, a Luger with a tightly fitting magazine is unusual.

Why this seemingly excess tolerance was built in, I don't know. Maybe to account for combat conditions, mud, etc..

Just some thoughts.


Sieger

Your might consider contacting G.T. or Tom Heller to see if they can suggest an approach or help.

I have found all MecGars are not created equal. I recently acquired a 1906 .30 Luger American Eagle, and had exactly the same issues you are having, failure to feed/stovepipe. None of the MecGars would operate it correctly. Only the original would make it work ok.

On a different gun with a different magazine issue, I had to try several(five) different MecGars before I found one, #5, that would make the pistol work correctly. Empirical evidence that not all MecGars are created equal. Don't get me wrong - I agree MecGars are fine aftermarket magazines. It's just that the Luger pistol can be very, very picky about which magazine it will function with. My experience is that with magazine issues, sometimes you must try several before finding one that solves the issue.

I have found this to be true in my limited experience also.

Some mags even function one day and not the next.:eek:

I am back, having tried various members' suggestions and controlled for various factors. Have to report no progress. I tried Fiocchi .30 Luger SJSP ammo: no improvement in function in my pistol: it continued to fail to load, smokestacked the extracted round, and jammed at the breech. Tried making sure the mag. was fully seated: no improvement. Tried loading one or two rounds only and firing; fired okay but usually failed to lock back. Loading two or three rounds: no improvement. At this point, I guess I will get a new recoil spring and try that. Any further suggestions much appreciated. Thanks to all.....CF

stovepipes.....
 

Hi CF, I have had and tuned Lugers that would ONLY work with Winchester .30 ammo?.... and absolutely not work at all with any Fiocchi ammo.... Take the firing pin assembly out and cycle rounds thru by hand? If they cycle thru, it's not the clip.. it's the ammo, (under power or short OAL) or mainspring... I do ALL my testing with Winchester, even though it's expensive! .... Good luck, best to all, til...lat'r....GT;)

Wolff Springs offer three(3) different mainspring weights(I am pretty sure) for the P08 Luger. They are not expensive to purchase. I suggest that you purchase all three weights so that you can "tune" your luger to the ammo that you plan to use. A P08 Luger is a balancing act of springs, mags, and ammo for the most part. Hang in there, and don't give up. Lugers can be made to work.....trust me, I have been down this path more than once.

You will likely want to use the lowest weight recoil spring. There were a number of different springs used in various models of Lugers. All this is involved in the balance of the action as it cycles.

Also double check to make sure that your extractor and the ejector are both clean and undamaged.

Marc

The Germans, DWM and all had trouble deciding what spring to use.
This chart will give you some idea.;)

Though counter-intuitive, the .30 luger did not always use a "lighter" spring than the 9mm chambering; in fact the opposite is true in the
1906 American Eagle data. The 1920 and '23 models are shown as the same.

So, weaker may not be "better" in this case.

Be also sure your chamber is immaculately clean, just to confirm it is not a rough chamber, try a little oil on a couple rounds and see how that goes.

Pretty interesting results. I put a drop of oil on each round and another drop in the chamber. Had trouble loading the first round from the mag by drawing back the toggle and releasing; that first round got hung up at the chamber. I dropped the mag, and the round went into battery. After that: function was flawless: no trouble loading successive rounds, no jams, no trouble with extraction or ejection, and action locked open after last round. Not sure what this might mean, but it's a big step forward. I guess I'll try some Winchester .30 Luger, too, though if this pistol demands that ammo., I won't be able to afford to shoot it. Thanks to all......CF

Historically excess oil on ammunition, chambers and bores is or can be dangerous. Try to keep it to a minimum to be on the safe side.

I agree with Jerry, be careful you are not supposed to oil rounds and chambers, then oil in the chamber/barrel can generate high and dangerous pressures.
Shoot safe!


Sergio

Okay, makes sense. Many thanks. I will concentrate on making sure chamber is good and clean....CF

Jerry and Sergio,

This was advised for a "two round" test!

For pete's sake, everyone knows- or should know not to oil rounds routinely!:(

Don, Yes of course! Just cautionary advise..no harm no foul. A lot of people are not aware of too much oil as an obstruction in bores & chambers..Better safe than blowed up.

As above, your chamber should be clean and smooth for proper chambering of rounds. I think that your results still point to a close, but incorrect, mainspring for YOUR Luger.....just saying.

Since my last post a month back, I have tried the three recoil springs in the Wolff pack, and tried Winchester .30 Luger ammo. No success. Luger still fails to load the next round, which jams at the breach almost as though the magazine spring weren't elevating it enough to position it for loading into the breech. This in spite of new MecGar mag, which seems to fit and work okay. When I load a single round, firing, extraction, ejection, and lockback are normal. Any members' thoughts most welcome. Thanks.....CF

Couple of random ideas; try cupping your off hand on the bottom of the grip to manually press upwards on the magazine to physically raise the rounds up in the gun. Sometimes the mag. catch wears and allows the mag. to hang too low.
Also try loading just 2 rounds to see if it functions with only one in the magazine.
Of course grip the gun tightly.
Using FMJ bullet design?
dju

Thanks, DJU. I am supporting or bracing the mag. from the bottom. When I load two rounds, the first loads normally when I withdraw and release the toggle, and it fires normally, but it may smokestack, and the next round jams as usual. I'm using Winchester FMJ .30. Puzzling to me.......Thanks again for your reply......CF

So when you say you are supporting or bracing the mag, you are consciously pressing up on it? It's almost sounding like the toggle isn't going back far enough. I personally view Wolff springs with suspicion, like they are one-size-fits-all or universal in nature.
Some masking tape of the back of the frame to see if the rear toggle link is hitting the frame on recoil may be the next test. If the tape isn't being hit at all then you may need more recoil or less spring.
I am assuming that the gun is clean and very generously lubed?
dju