www.lugerforum.com Technical Info Production Info Table 3
 

I have questions regarding Production Info Table 3 at http://www.lugerforum.com/ would whoever created or maintains table 3 please contact me.

Thanks

dardensharp@yahoo.com

Sorry Yoda, with all the respect, but probably many other people like me would be interested about your questions on "Pistole Parabellum Production Run in Chronological Order - Chart 3" I think.


Sergio

What are you looking for?

Its been years since some of the information has been updated.

I would say that the table is probably not fully accurate.

So, what are you looking for?


Ed

Those tables are as old as the forum itself. I suspect it was transcribed from one of Ralph Shattucks old tables of identification and is long ago outdated. No one has ever undertaken to update it. Much in it is incorrect and/or more recent information is known.

Thanks
 

Thanks for your response Edward Tinker and Ron Wood.

My question is what is the source for note at the bottom Table 3 (I have copied the note below):

“NOTE: The Model 1906/24 Swiss is almost identical to the Model 1900/06 made by DWM. The Model 1906/29 is a completely redesigned variation of the DWM type.
? "Baby" .32 ACP ? Reported to be 2/3 size of normal Luger. ? "Pocket" 9? 2t~? Shorter frame & barrel, 5 round magazine.”

This the only reference I can find that the Luger was ever produced in .32 ACP. I have looked in many gun and ammo books have not been able to find any other reference.
I am trying to identify and find out as much info as possible about a Luger I inherited from my father.

It is a 4 ¾-inch barrel DWM in .32 ACP and appears to me to be a commercial 1906 Model. It has a coil spring and a grip and thumb safety. The serial number is 68370 and matches most parts except bolt and magazine. GERMANY is on the front of the frame and there is a C inside the rear frame.

Perhaps I can pick up a copy of Ralph Shattuck’s book.

Sergio I thought my question would be too obscure for a general discussion on the forum. I did not mean to slight anyone.

If any of you has any info or suggestions for me, please feel free to comment.

Thanks

Is it in 32 acp or is it in 7.65mm (30 luger)

Pictures, description etc.

Because the information you are trying to obtain is simply not there. 32 acp 'baby's have been made, in addition, there are a couple supposedly that are real...

you've have to have it examined by folks, however, the serial number range takes it out of most of the alleged baby's. My guess is that it is a made up gun (cool I am sure).

pictures please - posted here on the forum

Ed

In September 2000 Ralph published his little black book. Several pretty lugers and their historys are explored. Displayed is the 1893 Borchardt, 1900 Swiss, 1906 Portugese Navy, The Carlos I, 1900 American Eagle, 1902 Carbine, 1904 Navy, 1900 and 1906 Russian, 1902 Carbine Brief Case, P08.Baby luger, 32 cal. Prototype, Spandau, 1917 DWM Artillery, 1920 Reworks, Simson & Co Suhl, Vickers LTD, 1916 Dated Navy Luger,unit marked, Death Head of Totenkopfe, Mauser 1930-1942.Chrome Luger unit marked "L.Mg.22.Persion 4" and8" artillery. Prototype Persion cutaway.

Yoda,
Shattuck did not publish his variation listing in a book. In the early 1970s he provided his lists to such publications as "Guns & Ammo Annual" and "Arms Gazette". His lists were in a different format than the tables on this forum, so perhaps he is not the origin of the information shown.

As you have described it, your Luger is rather enigmatic. Unless the barrel has been sleeved and rechambered for the .32 automatic cartridge and the magazine highly modified to accept that round it is more than likely the caliber is actually 7.65mm Parabellum (.30 Luger). The serial number, 68370, places the gun well after the 1906 Commercial range which did not go much beyond 39000. Is there a stock lug on your Luger? If so it could be the frame of a quite scarce 1913 commercial, but the combination of a 4 3/4-inch barrel and .30 caliber is not consistent with that model.

If at all possible, photos of your gun would be most appreciated and help properly identify it.
Thank you,
Ron

Ed:

After my father passed away, the Luger has been in my safe for over 25 years. When he was alive, I never thought to ask him its story.

I like you just assumed it was a Luger 30 because I could tell it definitely was not a 9 MM. So I got a box of Luger 30 and went out to shoot it. But the Luger 30 would not even chamber. So I went to a local part-time gunsmith to have him see why it wouldn’t chamber a round. He measured the barrel and told me it was probably a 32 ACP or some obsolete ammo. We looked through all his gun and ammo books and could not find any reference to a 32 ACP Luger or an obsolete ammo.

I bought some 32 ACP ammo and we fired 5 rounds. They chambered and extracted perfectly. I even have one of the spent cartridges around here somewhere.

So I tried to research it and could not find anything until I found the reference in the note on table 3. I talked with the gunsmith and he said the barrel did not look like it had a sleeve and the barrel looked proper and was proportionately tapered. He said it probably was not a prototype because of the serial number and that fabricating a one off Luger barrel in 32 ACP could not have been done cheaply.

My father was a collector, of sorts, guns, clocks, pocket watches, jewelry, etc. I believe he bought this gun in the late sixties in the Chicago area. Believe me, my father was cheap and would not have paid much for it. So it really does not make sense to me that someone would have gone to the trouble and expense, only to sell it to my father for probably under $100.

It is definitely a standard size Luger and not a baby Luger.

As for pictures, I tried but my hand is not very steady and the parts do not lend themselves to easy photos. I will try again. :confused:It is a rather ordinary 100+ year old gun with checkered walnut grips. Although I now wonder if it is a rare item. Anyway, I am not going to fire it anymore and when I disassemble it, I do not force anything.

I live the midlands of SC (Columbia area). Do you know anyone nearby who is a Luger authority or expert that I could have look at the gun?

What does a stock lug look like?

I will attach a photo showing what a stock looks like from either side. also what the stock lug is used for: attaching a shoulder stock, most luger did not come with a shoulder stock - only the Navy and artillery lugers used a stock. but almost all Lugers have a stock lug. But some don't.

Prior to the Model 1904 Navy, except for a couple of experimental models Lugers did not have stock lugs. In addition to Artillery and Navy Lugers, the Luger Carbine also utilized a stock.

A Model 1906 would not have a stock lug.

Ron,

Sorry, no stock lugs. I even took off one of the grips to make sure that they were not covered up by the grips.

Thanks

I don't know the exact barrel diameter of a 32 acp and a 7.65mm (in comparison) but I wonder if the area where the rounds go is sleeved, like the chamber adapter that changed a 30-06 to 308 by fire forming / fitting with either epoxy or by tightness?

Ed

looked it up

32 acp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_ACP
Bullet diameter .3125 in (7.94 mm)

7.65mm
Bullet diameter 7.85 mm (0.309 in)

so, it sounds to me that it could be 'bored' out a bit and just the bore sleeved?

Other thoughts?

Rich?

I have a 1913 Erfurt #4857a with no lug and a 1913 Erfurt #9502a with a stock lug and '162.R.11.3' I'll submit pictures if requested, Eric

The changes occurred mainly in 1913 for stock lug, and in 1914 for hold open.

Stock lugs became standard on Lugers delivered after August 1913.
Jan C. Still in his "Central Powers Pistols" refers that the stock-lug started around serial number 6000a (between 3980a and 7825a) but did not mention the exact serial number for the change of the hold open, which started according a directive dated 6th May 1913.
The hold open transition apparently occurred in a range of about 1,538 guns between 9454 and 373a; while the addition of the stock lug appears to have occurred between 4918a and 5609a.

DWM 1900 DWM 1900/06 W+F 1906 and W+F 1906/29 do not have any stock lug

Some sort of stock lug can be found on 1900 and 1906 "American Eagle" DWM lugers fitted with smooth Ideal stock walnut grips to match the US made Ideal stock.


My 2 cents.


Sergio

Sergio, your opinion is always worth more than 2 cents!

Quite interesting Luger. A bit off-topic, but I'll re-inburse you for that box of 7.65 ammunition that you have no use for. :)

Jones and Datig both mention 32ACP Lugers, but they provide no pics. Pics of yours are what we need - a pic of the chamber/bore would be good too. ;)

I would also like to see photos of the magazine. It is interesting that a full sized Luger could feed, fire and function with a round that is almost 20% shorter than either a 9mm or 7.65mm round. Overall length (OAL) of the cartridge is one of the critical factors in proper functioning of a Luger. Even one or two millimeters off in OAL frequently contributes to "stovepipes" or failure to feed.

The only .32 ACP Luger that is documented is the diminutive "Baby" Luger that was constructed by head engineer Heinrich Hoffmann at BKIW in 1925/26 under the supervision of Herr August Weiss.

"DWM 1900 DWM 1900/06 W+F 1906 and W+F 1906/29 do not have any stock lug

Some sort of stock lug can be found on 1900 and 1906 "American Eagle" DWM lugers fitted with smooth Ideal stock walnut grips to match the US made Ideal stock."


Just to be a bit more specific I enclose some close pictures of te above mentioned sort of "stock lug"


To Eric, thanks a lot, but honestly sometimes I also make a lot of mistakes.


Sergio

Datig & Walter extracts below.

It is interesting that the 'baby' Luger is not the same as the 'pocket' Luger. The 'pocket' Luger is the one with the short barrel and short gripframe/magazine; the 'baby' is quite different in construction, although it also has a shorter barrel & gripframe.

The "pocket" Lugers you refer to are actually custom alterations of full size Lugers. The grip frame was cut, a section removed and a welded/silver soldered back together. A shorter barrel was installed. One such custom piece was the personal property of Georg Luger himself.

The late John Martz used that concept to create his custom "baby" Lugers. I have finally acquired one of his masterpieces and I am particularly pleased that it was fabricated from a Model 1900 American Eagle...one of my favorites.

That's actually Fred Datig's designation - see below. ;)

Mike Krause made recreations of the "Baby" [in 32ACP!], as shown on Bob Adams web site (and pic below) -

http://www.adamsguns.com/luger45.htm

http://forum.lugerforum.com/attachme...1&d=1437667047
LOVE those grips!

Zorba

I agree lovely grips, wooden grips are aestetically the most beautiful; as for the rest I'm a bit of a purist, some sort of "Luger Integralist"... I wouldn't really share all this appreciation about recent custom alterations... :nono:



Sergio

Mike Krause guns~ http://www.adamsguns.com/luger45.htm

That Luger is just awesome!! I can't imagine having that piece in my safe.

Since acquiring the Martz gun I have been inspired to finish the "baby" I started to create about 30 years ago and never got around to finishing it. I like the grips on mine too! :evilgrin:

Ummm...Where's the barrel??? :confused:

I believe I mentioned I haven't gotten around to finishing it :). Finding a long thread barrel (for the long receiver) has proven to be difficult, but I have one now.
By the way, thanks for the thread chaser...I haven't gotten around to using it either! :)

Ted gave me permission to post this picture in Ralphs' home many years ago!.

Sergio,
I agree that altering a collectible Luger is not an acceptable practice. But both the Martz gun and the one I have been working on are an accumulation of mis-matched and damaged parts that are assembled into a functioning custom gun. No history is being lost, it is just being recycled in a different format.:cheers:

Good For You you both!

A 'member' :rolleyes: at ARFCOM did a 'pocket' Luger back in 2004 for a raffle at American Handgunner. The thread is archived, but the pics are still online -

Thor340 [Member] 2/23/2004 6:59:51 AM EDT

This Luger will be raffled off next year in the American Handgunner. I finished it in the white and have sent it to Brian Powley engravers for a full engraving treatment. I have petitioned him to do it in a German Oak Leaf and Acorn pattern and I sure hope he will. I will rust blue it after he is done with the engraving. The gun was made from a shooter Luger by Neil Keller at Kustom Ballistics. Here are the websites and pictures. The barrel is 2 & 5/8" and in 9mm Luger (Para.)

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman...ugerD2EXIF.jpg
http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman...ugerD1EXIF.jpg
www.powleyengraving.com/
www.kustom-ballistics.com/

It may be on his site as well, I haven't checked it out in quite some time...

Ted's Luger Strawing Service
http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

Getting back to Yoda's original post, I would really like to see the requested photos. The gun is a puzzle and will not be resolved without some visual images...perhaps not even then, but without some graphic information we are without any clue.

If this maybe assistance. Many years ago before his death I sent John a copy of this book~ He died shortly there after~ The carbine on the back cover is his! I don't mean to trespass but I feel its relevant to the discussion~~sorry~~Eric

Eric,
What does that have to do with this topic?

I removed the thread about the war. That was misplaced! As john Martz was being discussed I posted what I had of him~ Ron. Thank you for looking out for me~~~~~

I have been tied up lately and have not been able to get a hold of my gunsmith. Your question is way above my gun knowledge. I will eventually get you an answer and some photos. Sorry for the delay.

Ron


Aaaaaall right then I forgive you!

:cheers: Sergio