New Project! For shooters!
 

Hello to all! Well, as you all pretty much already know, I have recently been learning, and applying what I'm learning, in the art of Luger barrel replacement! I have always wanted to make my own barrels, but have lacked the machines to properly mill the barrel bands and sight bases, plus the other secondary operations necessary for a quality barrel..... The more re-barreling work I do, the less interested in collecting I've become, so I am starting to think quite a ways out of the box so to speak... :eek:... So, I thought, why not make a Sport Target shooter set up, comparatively low cost, with as simple of features that can be preformed, but still add up to a better target set up then what the Luger was originally designed for?.....So, I have teamed up with Olle on the forum, to help me in the milling operations he is so very capable of. And I can perform all the lathe, and of course fitting and indexing operations to both start and finish the project! ..... :)... And, with this post, I am confident to say, Olle has been exceeding my expectations!!! And it appears this joint project will indeed come to pass! Certainly at least for a few sets unless we encounter unforeseen difficulties? My main worry at this point is overall barrel mass? It doesn't take too long of a bull barrel configuration to make the Luger somewhat un-reliable, and I used to have this discussion with John V. Martz... He had actually made a long barrel and cut it down until it was reliable with out changing any other aspect of the gun....It got pretty short! That is why my one of a kind John V. Martz 5" .30 slab side barrel custom Target Luger has slab sides?? He didn't think it would work, and I didn't know, but it did, and does, work well! :thumbup: So, basically, (our initial offering) will be a 9mm, 4" 5" or 6" barrel approx. .800" in dia, bull barrel with slab cut sides, and a front sight base cut directly into the top barrel dia. We are nearly finished with the first 4" prototype and it will have a square top front sight blade and a u cut notch (same as some Swiss) on the original rear sight. Other options will come available as they prove worthy.. Hopefully Olle can post a few pictures of the prototype operations, both to show the quality and amount of effort that goes into a project that appears simple, but is far from it when the tools actually meet the steel! More later! Let me know at: gctomeks@msn.com if you have any interest in one! Best to all, til....lat'r....GT....:cheers:

Hey Gerald.....any plans to try and fit a Micro or MMC type adjustable sight to a rear toggle?

not yet!
 

As the front sight base is integral with the barrel dia. it will be very much on plain with an original set up.... to keep cost down, and of course to keep it simple... the existing v notch rear sight will be modified, but to what extent, we don't yet know??... best all, til...lat'r...GT....:cheers:

GT and Ollie, well done!

A true labor of love; can't wait to see the results.

nukem,
I believe there is nothing short of an original Navy sight type rear will hold up to the violence of the toggle movement; I think Ollie pretty much proved it with his experience with his cast sight replacement. JMHO.

rear sight!
 

Hi Don, although there are many custom rear sights on Lugers, it is probably the most harsh environment a rear sight could ever experience!!!!!! ....:eek:... even the original navy sights loosen up pretty quickly when shot a lot.... If I ever incorporate a custom rear, it will be designed in conjunction with a Navy toggle.... :thumbup:...... best to you, til....lat'r.....GT:cheers:

GT-
Based on my experience with the 6" barrel you made for my gun, the thicker barrel will raise the front sight high enough to work with an existing rear sight. You'll have to fiddle around to get the exact height you need. I found Brownell's sight blank for the 98 Mauser a good place to start. The dovetail is different, but that's what files are for.
Go Team!
John

you nailed it!
 

Hi John, yes! that is our pre-project choice, the tall Brownells K98k square top blade... We are cutting the dovetails for a tight Luger original front sight, and will hand file the Mauser to fit. If it works out, then we will cut for a tight Mauser... very slight difference?.... :thumbup:....That's the plan! til....lat'r.....GT:cheers:

I dunno....1911 .45s have adjustable sights that hold up over thousands of rounds, and the velocity and G forces are all at once, in one direction....I'd think the "rolling" action of the rear toggle, would spread the forces over more of an area at a slower rate....then again, I'm no engineer.

I dunno either!
 

I'm not sure as well!? I've just noticed going from tight to loose??? ....:eek:..... Like my dad used to say, "Son, it's not the long fall that kills you! It's the stop!" ..........:jumper:...GT...:cheers:

Hi Rick!
 

Hi Rick! Always enjoy hearing from you on my threads! Your knowledgeable observations and sage advice carry a lot of weight here at G.T. Specialties! :thumbup: Thanks for all, best to you, til...lat'r....GT......:cheers:

Progress!
 

Since the pic's Ed put up, we have the front sight dovetail cut, and tooling is on the way for the ramp and extractor cuts! Almost there! BTW, right now it's all Olle! :thumbup:... I thought I was accurate on measurements and such? He makes me look like a cub scout in that regard! ....:eek:..... A true perfectionist, all he needs is a good Bridgeport!... he'd machine the bottom of the world flat, cure that spinning thing???.... :)..... til...lat'r....GT

....and here's a picture of the dovetail with a Luger sight in it. I believe the plan is to use a Mauser K98 sight, and this will look much better. Now I'm waiting for the tooling for the feed ramp and the extractor cut, and once I have that I should be able to wrap it up in an hour or two. :)

Would it hurt integrity to round the edges in front of the sight?

No, it wouldn't hurt at all, I was actually thinking about breaking the edges a bit but I'll leave it for the final finish work.

Doing a full roundover would be trickier, as it would require either precise machining or some careful work with a file. A slight bevel on the top front edge would be pretty easy to machine though.

Beautiful, Olle!
If the mass of your stier gewehrlauf has about the same mass and an artillery barrel, the gun should function just fine. Can you tell us anything about the trigger system ?
Go Team!

GT. You will probably want to do some investigating of some modified recoil springs, since the heavier the barrel, a lighter recoil spring will be required for full recoil of the toggle assy. in the case of the GPC 16+ inch "carbine" barrel, a one piece recoil spring with about 14 turns will allow full recoil, but doesn't have enough strength to return the toggle and load the next round. Perhaps a dual spring system, as in the Radom, Glocks, etc may be the answer. TH

muzzle configuration
 

Hi Ed! As this was/is a proto. we are mainly tying to establish what we can and can not do, both with economy of labor, and tools / materials.... Nothing is ruled out, but some secondary operations are as time consuming as the complete job all together? But, my plan is to have the front sight base relief cut radius, start slightly back from the muzzle... That way, I can chamfer the diameter, and recess / counter bore the full dia. of the muzzle, everything else remain the same? Stability for this cut may be an issue that will give us trouble.... We might /will find that out on number two! ...:eek:.......First, we finish number one!....:thumbup:.. best to all, til...lat'r...GT....:cheers:

Yeah, the weight might be a problem but there's still some room for relief cuts. I guess we need to weigh it after final machining and make that decision later. After all it's a bull barrel, so IMO it would be better to experiment with springs than to cut too much off of it. As far as the trigger goes, this is not my project and I don't know what the actual owner has in mind.

That is a super looking barrel and a great project you have undertaken for the Luger community! (If I ever get out from under a bunch of other projects, not likely :), I would love to tackle a target Luger with one of those barrels.

To get off topic a bit, with regard to the sights and trigger, there are some neat old articles in gun magazines from the 60s and 70s. "Skeeter" Skelton wrote and article "For love of a long-barreled Luger" or something like that that featured a specially made MMC sight adapted to the Luger toggle that appeared to be a viable option. I have a couple of MMC sights that I got from Hugh Clark that might be modified to fit (the adjustment screws are too wide to fit between the receiver rails).

I have posted an article from May 1974 "Shooting Times" a couple of times in the past that shows how to tune a Luger trigger and add set screws for trigger pull and over-travel adjustment.

The Luger is has potential for a really fine target pistol, and I hope your project encourages Luger aficionados to "go for it"!
Ron

Hi Ron!
 

Always good to hear from you Ron! ... As mentioned, we are going to wring out any and all possible avenues that will enhance our sport / target effort.... The sport part dictates cost effective and affordable, and the target part as much precision as we can afford, or as required? My original plan would include barrel, mainspring, and hopefully a magazine... Labor options would be barrel install, and rear sight mod, range test...... I'd like to offer trigger work down the road, but fear liability in this area would nullify the whole effort?.... I have an idea on how to make a drop in improvement on the Luger trigger, but that's still a "workshop secret" at this point, and besides, right now, "my plate is really full and my fork is pretty small!" ....:eek:... Again, good to hear from you Ron, til...lat'r...GT...:cheers:

Ok, time to wrap it up, and I would like to thank Sheepherder for the moral and technical support he provided for this part. :cheers:

The ramp cut was pretty straightforward, I set up the barrel for a cut 50 degrees off the centerline and cut it with a 10mm end mill. It's fresh out of the mill in the picture, so it still needs a little blending to break the sharp edges.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3298
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3299

One thing that puzzles me is the width of the original ramp. The drawing shows a straight ramp with a 5mm radius, but making that cut with a straight 10mm end mill creates a ramp that's more like an ellipse where it intersects the end. After eyeballing and gauging several original barrels I realized that these cuts are not cylindrical. They actually taper a bit, thus creating a wider throat at the bottom. I have seen similar ramps on barrels made for rapid fire with double stack mags (the M4 ramp comes to mind), but I can't see that it would be of any benefit on a single stack semi-auto.

I guess the original shape is just a result of anal German engineers trying to follow a drawing that wasn't fully thought out, and a straight, cylindrical cut should actually work better IMO.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3300

The extractor cut was a bit more challenging due to its shape. You can cut this with straight cutters and then use needle files to round it off, but after a few hours on the internet I found a corner rounding end mill that could do the job without any hand adjustment. The dimensions are slightly different than on the original drawing, but the objective is a nice cut with ample clearance for the extractor so the actual dimensions are not extremely critical. I checked for clearance by holding a breech block against the finished cut, and it fit nicely.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3295
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3297
http://forum.lugerforum.com/picture....pictureid=3296

This concludes my part of the project, so the barrel is boxed up and will be heading for AZ today. Just some finishing work and installation left to do, then it's ready for the range. :)

GT,

What are you planning to use for a recoil spring, as you are adding a significant amount of weight to your upper?

Lugers don't need heavy or fat barrels to shoot accurately. Improving the sights and trigger pull should be enough.

Just my experience.


Sieger

Ditto.

As much as I hate to admit!
 

Of course you fellows are correct!......:eek:..... A heavy barrel probably has less effect on accuracy, but maybe more on balance and feel then a standard issue barrel, but, the main reason I'm going this route is cost! and flexibility? It takes some serious machining and mill work to cut the taper, index and mill out the front sight base!.....:eek:.. I'm not going to ask a fortune for these, and the potential is excellent to build on.... But, for as far as we have gotten! Credit is certainly due to a few fellows on this forum, Olle has done an excellent job on this latest prototype, and the next one will be even more concise as to what we are trying to accomplish? Rich Brennan has done wonders on making and correcting extractor cuts and feed ramp cuts, and has been a trailblazer in this regard, I can't thank him enough....:thumbup:... It all trickles down until finally it spills over and we accomplish something? I know this much, trying nothing, gets you no where, with either success or failure.... I love the quote M. Zelany (Sp.? sorry!) loosely stated, "Try, fail, try again, fail better" I've found that is probably more correct than most quotes about life efforts?... More to come, lots happening!...:thumbup:...BTW, I'mmmm Bacccckkkkk! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT:jumper:

As for springs!
 

I have a lot of 9MM mainsprings, and there is quite a bit of variance in those?? I'll start with a WW1 DWM 9MM spring for a standard 4" and we'll adjust from there?... I hope it works right outt'a the bucket! ......:thumbup:....Best to all, til...lat'r...GT......:jumper:

I'll tell you a secret. The balance of the issue P.08 suits me just the way it is. Better sights would be another story though (I ain't getting any younger).

weight?
 

Yes! I certainly hear you on the eye sight and age... With my vision, I don't really need sights anyway! .....:eek:.... As for accuracy, everyone has a little different take on weight and balance, apart from barrel vibrations, which are probably minimal in a 4" barrel, the heavy barrel is also supposed to dampen movement and control.... Kinda like throwing a ping pong ball, a baseball and a bowling ball across the street, only one is going to work correctly.. and that is the balance you're after... What ever is correct for you? I personal just like to hear the gun go off! :thumbup: Best to you, til...lat'r...GT....:jumper:

Funny thing. The 4 3/4" .30 and the 4" 9mm have about the same balance. There is a slight advantage for the .30 because (at least in my M2) the vertical back face of the front sight and the longer sight radius give a better aiming picture.

On the other hand good .30 ammo don't grow on trees.

remember, that's your secret, not mine :) I like a 5 or 6 inch luger for looks and feel....

You're right of course.

Me, for looks shooting and feel, I like the 5" and 4" better.

Balance and looks are both a matter of personal taste. Personally, I like a little bit of weight up front for target shooting. If it’s “just right”, it will require enough strain to give it stability, but not enough to make you shaky after a few rounds. It also reduces muzzle flip and makes for more accurate follow-up shots in rapid fire drills. Other people (especially the young’uns who still have steady hands) may like a lighter and more neutrally balanced pistol better. And of course, some wouldn’t even look twice at a bull barrel just because it’s not an original style. There’s no right or wrong, it all boils down to your own opinion, and like Dirty Harry said: “Everybody has one”. ;)

Range Test!!!!!!
 

Well, have to wait for back ordered Mauser front blade, so tapped in tall original front sight blade and headed for the range! Gun performed flawlessly!!!!!! .....:thumbup:.....And felt perfectly balanced, (for my taste!) As for accuracy, I can't tell you as I didn't put it on paper.. (my eyes are not good enough to make that determination....:surr:) But in every respect, this G.T. Sport Target 08 should live up to most expectations......On it's way to Ed now for his personal sight adjustment requirements, and after that bluing? It really looks neat, and maybe Ed will post a few pic's when all is completed?.:eek: ... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT.....:jumper:

So, I have the first Target Sport GT Special !! :jumper:

I have three 9mm special barrels.

6 inch with target front sight

8 inch long barrel

(both work fine with normal rounds)

New TS GT Special
I have not shot it, since it arrived today - will try to make it to the range in the next few days

GT Target Special 08
 

Hi Ed! Nice herd! I love the shooter stable! Yes! The first, the prototype, and the only specimen so far! ......:thumbup:... I have no idea where it is going to shoot, but I suspect high.. hopefully it will group nicely, the rest we can adjust as we proceed! It really has a nice feel to it, and we might be surprised how it performs?... I hope well... I also don't know the twist as the blank was one you had purchased initially, but was definitely cut for a luger, next one will be 1/10 and probably 5"..... then a 6" and if no lines are forming in front of the hotdog stand by then, I will make a few for the future and then on to the next far fetched, hair brained idea??..:eek:.... seems to be my destiny... Thanks, and Best to all, til...lat'r....GT....:jumper::jumper:

I don't know why, but I think I want one!

see For Sale section!!
 

Hi Aaron! I've just posted in the for sale section...:eek:....... Might stir some interest, might not.... But, it's there for all to see. Best to you, til...lat'r....GT .....:thumbup: