Erma .22 conversion for P 08; FIRING update post #21
 

Here is my new "toy", just got it this week and have not had a chance to try it out yet.

Best I can tell from reading it dates to about 1934.

No box, but two 5rnd. magazines!:D

One magazine is numbered to the toggle assembly; the other to the barrel number- so I have part of two original kits.

Anyone have an empty box? Or a spare barrel nut, as it should have two?

Also shown installed in my shooter 1937 upper on my basket case
1906 lower, which is functional using "borrowed' parts from another of my Lugers.

Still need an upper for it, but did buy a 6' Navy barrel today!:thumbup:

You may find it necessary to remove the ejector on the receiver that you are using.

You are correct, the barrel is impossible to insert without removal
of the original ejector.

Yes, I have all the parts, well except one muzzle nut,
that is why more thread is showing, supposed to have two as shown in your post.

The centering busing is part of the barrel extension that goes between the barrel and the nuts. You can see it as the brass bushing on the extension in my picture.

The length of my barrel is longer than the commercial one, hence a longer extension.

The original kit is in Vol. III of Sturgess.

Part # 8903 is the part that centers part #8901 into part #8902 then the lock washer and part #8901 holds it all together.

It may actually need these two parts for the muzzle.

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/erma22knur...trear8903.aspx

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/erma22lock...cknut8905.aspx

The ejection system on your early kit is the same as the last ones Erma made, the SE 08/2, the model Rich posted the parts diagram for. It should have a separate ejector compatible with the kit. For the kit to eject when installed and used, you'll need one of those, a modified one from the P.08, or a mag from the SE 08 kit made in between the early and /2. These mags have an extended right rear feed lip that sticks up and functions as the ejector. One of these mags in nice shape usually commands a hundred bucks or a little more, but I think it's the easiest way to deal with the situation. You may wait forever to encounter an original replacement ejector, and making one may eat up more shop time in designing the copy, making one, and tuning it to work, than is reasonable.

I have some spare muzzle nuts, but no spare locking washer, so picking both of them up from Sarco would be your best deal. I have an extra SE 08 mag. It has a streak of missing finish, due to something unknown dribbled on it in the past, which I'd pass on for $95 plus shipping in a small flat rate box. $50 insurance is automatically included, along with tracking, but if you want extra ins., add that in, too. If you're interested, give a holler!

If you look at my post and the picture of my pieces,
you will see that they are of the earlier type and not made this way!

The brass taper bushing at the end of the barrel extension in my kit is what centers the barrel in the extension.

Thanks for the help, but the designs of these two are different.

Thanks for the info on the ejector. I'll see what it takes to make one, but in the meanwhile I'll take you up on your offer on the magazine! :)

I'm sure I can come up with a washer, so if you an spare a "nut",
I'll get one from you too.

PM inbound

You can use an "O" ring in place of the lock washer.

I can't tell from the diagram, but is the washer a "wave" washer? If so, those are available, as I use them frequently. Just a thought.

Yes, it is a "wave washer", which will prevent the nuts from rotating once tightened, without digging into anything. They will loosen a bit when everything is heated up a little by firing; I just take up the slack by snugging again if they seem loose. They will come off harder than they went on unless you do it while the gun is still happy (warm, said the Beatles). Use non-marring tools if they are too tough to spin off by hand. Hugh is correct, in that an "O" ring will do, in a pinch.

Sarco is out of the specific original parts, but I'd think that a hardware store would have one to fit in one of those little bins. In this case, close is good enough, unless they have metric ones.

Thanks guys for all the help, info and ideas.

But the old model works just fine as is, being substantially different from the "Modified and Improved Erma "SE 08/2" model of 1990.

While I have yet to fire it, dry cycling loads and ejects just fine.

Why-
The early sub cal adaptors eject on the "horns" of the magazine, at least that is what they are called in Sturgess' book. If you have access, it is on page-1612, where differences in the old and improved SE 08/02 are detailed. The magazine was substantially changed, and a separate ejector added.

The old kit does not use the conical nut nor the washer either, but rather a brass bushing on one end of the extension- see the picture I posted. But it does use two nuts which serve to "jam" so as to prevent unscrewing. The "end" nut is flat on one side and rounded on the other, and a little oval shaped when viewed from the side, and a little longer than the one I have in my photo, to protect the end of the insert barrel.

I will find or make another nut, best I can measure it is 8mm x 0.5 pitch, or maybe 0.75 pitch.

Will try it out Tuesday, and know for sure.

A friend of mine has an early kit in the long box with all the goodies, except the wood handled cleaning rod.

I doubt anyone has a spare for sale- but thought I'd ask. I'm going to make him one to fill up the empty space in the box. The Erma guys were so thoughtful in designing the box, they even put in a cut out to hold the original pistol ejector so it would not get lost! and the original toggle is suppose to fit in the space for the .22 toggle, as is the magazine in the magazine space.

I'll get a picture of his kit in box next time I see it, to post here.

Yes, I would like to see the box, just might want to make one up..............

Here are some box pictures I have collected;

Yes, a small box seems quite do-able!

Thanks for the pictures!

I haven't checked the Sturgess book yet, but I think after this exchange I'm clearer on the changes that happened with this kit. My main misconception was that the pre-WWII kits needed the extractor swapped out. But the place in the box is solely for the removed original extractor. The 5-shot mags in the pics didn't look particularly "horny" compared to the ones I have, which have a pronounced difference in extra height on the right rear horn. There is proof in Ed's pics that the parts you have in your kit are indeed all there.

There was an SE 08/2--well, much of one anyway--on eBay, ended yesterday. It needed a lot of parts to be complete, and I am amazed that in the face of all the effort and research and patience necessary to complete the kit it went for over $200. Sarco has some of what was needed--pin and bushing for the rear, buffer bolt, its retainer and spring, f.p. and recoil springs-- but the extractor, stationary rear block, and firing pin will be a real bear to come up with.

Ithacartist,
I saw that auction, and couldn't believe it either. Maybe the buyer had an "old" one that he wanted to up grade??

Otherwise it would really be a search or a treasure hunt!

...or a big adventure in custom machine work!

I saw an auction back in 09-24-2014 that sounds exactly like the one you're describing; it would not surprise me if it was the same 'kit'...Someone [Dave!] even asked me if I thought a rear piece could be made up for it, and I think I said said it was possible but expensive...I think it was described in this thread -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=33210

Complete Erma SE 08/2 'kits' have been selling for $500-$600 lately, wartime seem to be a hundred or so more.

Not the same kit... The previous one has a high-tech looking mag, and you can tell in the pic that its extractor is there. My misconstruction of the extractor setups extended back at least that far...

Firing update on 7-14-15

It works!

Doesn't like standard velocity .22 LR ammo, but feed it "high speed" .22 LR and it goes!
I didn't try any of the stingers or super velocity loads, as the "normal" high speed .22 LR worked fine.
To be specific it was Peter's brand and maybe 15 years old!

Both magazines work fine and it extracts and ejects straight up and out!

It is for sure the "horns" on the back of the magazine are the "ejectors" in this design.

Happy day for sure!

And the lower works fine too!

Good show, Don. Mine was a little cranky, but found to work best on Aguila Golden Eagle Match--no, it couldn't like anything in an econo-box! Sounds like yours is actually going to be a bit of fun!

What is the difference between standard velocity ammo, and .22 LR? Is not .22 LR the standard load?

.22 long is the standard load, followed by Long Rifle, then high, then hyper velocity loads.

I think HayHugh left the words "Hi-velocity" out of his post...

Sometimes my fingers type a lot slower than my mind thinks they are typing... :roflmao:

No, I was questioning " Doesn't like standard velocity ammo, but feed it .22 LR and it goes!" If .22 long is the standard velocity, then I now understand. I also took it as a given that these adapters were only intended to use .22 LR...

I'm the one that left the ".22 LR" off after the standard velocity or high speed off befoer . 22 LR.

Yes of course it only shoots .22 LR correctly , and it does not like standard velocity or some call it target loads, it likes the regular,
common, what you usually get- "high speed" loading.

I hope this is clear!:thumbup:

From the first link, The following sorts out the basics for each round.


.22 lr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

.22 long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long

.22 extra long https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Extra_Long

.22 short https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_short

.22 rimfire is a big category, there are cartridges of all sort. Some are entirely proprietary. They're all rather interesting!

My only reference to proper ammo is attached:

The SE 08/2, being the last model of kit made, apparently could handle high speed loads, the ones that are the next notch up from Standard Velocity on the list above. Early, mostly-zinc alloy .22's they made in the 60's were made before the higher velocity was so common, and might likely not have have been designed to use it. The later KGP 69, made mostly of steel, had notes included with the gun that recommended high velocity rounds. But there is a limit. When initially testing mine as I acquired them, finding the ammo each one liked best, I made the mistake of using Stingers by CCI. You could hear the difference when firing, and their excessive energy broke three separate cast Zamak front toggle links in mine. So, though the stinger rounds are .22lr, they are hyper-velocity ~1600 fps and should be avoided in semi-auto pistols if there is any doubt about whether they can handle this load.

If one reads in Sturgess, they find that the period German .22 lr ammo was marginal in the pistol sub caliber kit- explanation is the ammo was designed for the rifle and didn't build sufficient pressure for the pistol to have a 'normal' barrel length.

hence the extended about 8" barrel which then supposedly worked with the ammo in the German army system.

That is why I started with standard velocity .22 LR, then Eley rifle target; neither of which worked. The Peters high speed did.

One can see from reading the post above that standard and high speed actually can overlap a little, so even the brand and maybe the lot will make a difference.

Your results will likely vary, but it is not at all unusual to have to select .22 LR ammo that functions well or better in any particular pistol- not just model- but individual pistols can vary significantly.

The same is true for other caliber pistols.

Do you know the date or period of the statement shown?

Obviously it is not for the SE 08/2 as it says just SE 08.

Makes sense.

What's the muzzle velocity of the Peters?

I think the speed ratings are pretty nominal; the only clear line is the 1100 fps, below which rounds are sub-sonic, by definition.

You said a mouthful there! Before the ammo panic, I picked up several boxes each of just about anything I could find in 40 gr RN, up to about the velocity rating of CCI Mini Mags, so I could offer this selection to each of my .22 Ermas. Some like a load a little hot, some do not.

Not sure when published.

"What's the muzzle velocity of the Peters?"

I have no idea, that box just came to the top of my "pile" and I grabbed it with the eley rounds.

It is at least 15 years old, maybe older.

I don't have, never had a chronograph. Reloaded in the distant past, found my time was worth more than the ammo I created. It was a good learning experience, but I got rid of my loading stuff in 1970!

I believe that you will find that Peters ammo is quite a bit older than 15 years. I still have some of it from back in the 1950s. I don't know exactly when it was dropped. Wow, this is really making me feel old!!

I did a search last night. I don't think it's made any more. Peters developed the.22 lr round at the turn of the last century

Here is some from the 20's

My box is not that old.

I'll have to take a photo and post it!
Who would have thought anyone would care?:eek:

Old ammunition boxes are cool...'Specially if them gots boolits in they's... :D