8-28-15 UPDATED: Pictures 1906 Navy basket case project, fini!
 

For the finished project pictures, see my post # 38 of
8-23-2015, Thanks.

I was searching/asking about parts a couple weeks back when a friend brought me some luger parts he had for a long while.

Some odds and ends, but a Navy toggle complete- cool. I bought the small lot and he pulls out a frame, saying you won't want this- it is too pitted- well, it was a Navy frame, but it IS very severely pitted for sure. Ok, I gave him a little more for it. Figured it was worth something.

Got home and was turning it around and noticed the grip strap marking, 1.T.D. / 1460. (First Torpedo Division).
Darn, now I felt like I had to put it back to shooting shape!

So that is how my silly project got started; I know it is not smart, will cost more than it is worth, etc, etc, etc. But I feel it needs to be in firing condition again, as much as any piece of steel can- it deserves it!

It is a 1906 first issue, altered, number 911 a ; with complete matching toggle train, grip safety, hold open, and trigger each also numbered 11.

If you have seen my WTB ad for parts, you see my direction. I'd really like to get a 6" navy upper; but may go with something in 4" as a place holder till one comes along. A long receiver would be ideal, but a short one will do. Besides the obvious need for an upper, I'll need grips-the left one is special!, and grip screws.

I have "found" a mainspring, take down lever, and side plate that will work.

Should you have any pieces you think I can use, please PM me or post below. Help in finding reasonable cost pieces will be much appreciated.
I'm thinking an interesting shooter may result from this project, if the result is worthy of a restoration refinish- it may eventually get one.

Anyway, here is what she looked like when I got her.

Don, I would take a lot of welding to properly restore those parts. Sorry i don't have the long frame receiver and barrel for your "Navy". You might want to consider a set from the standard Mauser 6" Parabellum, which might be as hard to find as the original Navy. I do have the correct type hold open and grip safety springs which you'll need in addition to the #11 sideplate that I'm holding for your check. Tom

Tom,
thanks, I'll be back to you on the parts in a few days.
I do need the hold open spring, the grip safety spring is still in the frame.

Correct safety lever is there, but I'll need a pin for it.

Thanks for the idea on the "modern" upper, that would work, but like you say- it may be tougher to find than an original.

I'm watching an original 6" bbl, but reblued that would work.

Main piece I need to move further is the receiver!

7-11-15

Lucky numbers, maybe lucky day!

Found a 6" Navy barrel and won it on auction.:)

Got inspired and put the rest of the pieces I had into the frame, and robbed a few from another pistol to get it together!

Now it may shoot; again after 40 or 100 years or who knows?

Here are some pictures of the partially complete frame, and then completed with borrowed grips and the .22 Erma kit installed
in my 1937 shooter upper, and then on the 1906 frame.

Those grips hide a multitude of pits!

I'm still looking for a receiver, with or without barrel-
a long navy would be cool.

"It's Alive!! It's Alive!!!"

Don, If the 6' barrel that you found is a true '06 Navy barrel, you will need a long Navy or Mauser Parabellum receiver for a flush fit, due to the old orig Navy barrels having an eighth inch longer threraded area than one for a standard P08. although I do have factory spacer rings used for installing the long receiver barrels in a short reciever. I still have the exc 20 commerical receiver with 4'x7.65 barrel installed that I quoted to you previously, as well as most other luger parts. Tom

Thanks Tom.

That is one of those cussed little details ! Your commercial upper is way nicer than is needed for this project- though I may need to go there anyway!

If I do wind up with a short receiver, I can make a "breeching washer"; but buying one would be a lot quicker.

The key to the "rest of the story" is going to be the receiver for sure.

Thanks for the observations and support!

Alanint,

We'll see for sure if it is alive on Tuesday when I go to the range!

glad you won ebay barrel!

Man, does that ever look like a fun project. It is so much fun when a plan comes together; even if it is someone else's project.
Thanks for the chance to see a man follow an itch to a fun plan.
Jack

Looks like a very fun project. I laughed a little bit when I read your first post where you remark it's a "silly" project, not smart, costly etc. Your comments could apply to any aspect of Luger ownership.

This relatively rare frame/toggle were headed for oblivion via oxidation and now are heading in the other direction thanks to you. I think it's a wonderful and inspiring project and look forward to seeing more.

Yeah, some may think that it's silly, and I have questioned my own sanity many times. However, some people laugh at me because of the time I spend on my projects, then they go back home and spend the rest of the afternoon in front of the TV. Compare the time spent on restoring a piece of history with the time most people spend on watching football games, and you'll see why it makes sense.

So, just for inspiration, here's one of my very early attempts to rescue an old train wreck. I actually bought it to use as a paperweight, but after being mocked by a friend I decided to restore it. It's far from perfect, but at least my friend is not laughing anymore. :D

No doubt, you have some talent there, Olle!

Ollie,
I do believe you are pulling our legs!

That is not the same pistol!:eek:

All joking aside, welll done again; and yes it is inspiring, thanks to all for the supportive words!:thumbup:

Firing Update: 7-14-15

Fired the Erma kit as installed above.

It does not like standard velocity ammo, but feed it "normal" high speed .22 LR and she
goes just fine!

Both magazines work and she ejects up and out- just like it is supposed to!

Build update: 7-27-15

Hurrah! Found a '06 upper complete, should be here Friday and test fired next week.

The lower is ready, thanks:thumbup: to other members here for various pieces, and to Jim Solomon for finding a nice set of grip safety cut grips!

Here is what it looks like ready for its "upper"!

I did email C. Danner about a refinish on the frame, but didn't hear back; I'll wait till it is finished now and try again.

I know it won't make any kind of financial sense- but we will see, maybe even run a "poll"!

Thanks for looking.

Don I have dealt with Charles and would give him a very high recommendation. I also seem to have better luck calling him as opposed to emailing him.

While it generally is "cheaper" to buy rather than restore, having had Charles partially restore one P.08 I can attest that is very satisfying.

Charles does excellent work. I do find that he is very receptive to contact by phone.
Jim

Well a few days have gone by and the upper arrived. It is in really nice condition and installed.
The basket case is now together and ready to test fire on Tuesday.

As noted before the lower is serial 911a, and First Torpedo Division marked(Kiel), the upper
is number 8284, and in very good original finish with a fine bore and matching toggle.

My thanks to all who made available parts and pieces for this project.

The last piece to finish this will be a blank DWM side plate or a commercially numbered one; 11, or 84 would be even better.
The side plate shown is a police cut unit, with the face milled down by someone to remove the numbers.

I have talked with Mr. Danner about a restoration refinish of the frame; if the test firing goes well, I'll be sending him the frame for a good look.

Here are pictures from today.:)

I also like rebuilding 'ol veterans into working pistols. More fun than collecting perfect guns; cheaper and shootable. And it gives you a real feel for the craftsmen that originally put these pistols together along with a physical touch with history.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34349

Eric,
I have wondered about the history of this badly pitted frame.
I don't think frames are particularly prone to corrosion pitting, which is what this is.

A friend and I surmised that this one must have come from a submarine sunk of our coast(NC).:eek: It came ashore with a German sailor and was buried, or lost in the surf for years.

I once owned a T 2 Japanese rifle that had been "lost" in hurricane Ivan. A few years later it was dug up during a beach replenishment operation , pitting was a lot like this frame.

TKS I found some minor pitting under a grip and then on only one side. It amazes me I do own some that are basically pristene. Usually they were early commercials which have never seen war like conditions. Caveat Emptor, If a WW1 Imperial is looks perfect get another opinions or more! We have some of the finest friendly experts available. Nothing wrong with natural life marks and all are parts of their history. The problem is when one tries to reverse the obvious. Every luger has a story, past and now a future. They are valuable in every condition. Eric

Don and Dave you have opened another view of luger collecting. Ted first opened my eyes! So many parts have deemed worthless and discarded. I've taken another view of luger collection and definitely another new market! Success! Eric

I sure hope you plan to fire this gun in a highly controlled manner.....a remote method for trigger pull with shielding for protection......too many accidental opportunities here......tom

No, I don't think so. The upper is like new and that is where all the activity is. The frame is fine on the inside- where it counts.

But thanks much for the heads up, being careful is never a bad idea.:thumbup:

I'm not sure what this means in relation to this project,
please explain.

Thanks for trying, I guess my brain just does not work the same as yours.:thumbup:

8-4-16 FIRING UPDATE

Loads, fires, and ejects properly and in general shoots great!:jumper:

I didn't fire for accuracy, which depends on how well I can see the sights or the target!
I can't see both at the same time.:eek:

Thanks again to all who helped with parts and advice.

Well, sort of bad news this am.

Seems the frame will have to live on with its full complement of Pitting.

I had sent it to Mr. Danner for evaluation and received this response:
"Received frame yesterday. The condition is worse than I would care to take on. Welding would be chancey for burn-through. Sorry. I will get it on the way back to you."

I will work on a couple small areas with a draw file and paper myself,
but basically it will remain as we see it!

Have you run this by Thor? Some craftsman's "no" is another's challenge.

No, it is a possibility; but Mr. Danner's evaluation agreed with my own, the pits are just too deep.

I'm afraid it would look like one of those Hollywood stars that had one face lift too many!

what about welding up using a henrob type gas torch, fine point heat etc ?

I once saw at a swap meet a factory rep rejoin a very thin sliced steel can nearly perfectly with henrob. seems like it was steel coffee can. weld was perfect and no metal warping, slightly beaded up ridge at the joined seam.

burn thru with electric arc I can appreciate that !

good luck
Bill

Bill,
that would be a LOT of welding, and then even more filing and smoothing.
For those who didn't see the condition here are a couple pictures again.

And what it looks like with a little cold blue and dressed out with the nice upper and grips.

I think I will just work on the few spots i can improve and then treat it to a re- blue for protection/appearance, and keep it as an interesting shooter.

It does shoot sweetly.

I would pass on doing this one too. Life is too short and I am too old.

You may want to look into laser welding. A good laser welder can weld on a square mm without ruining the underlying or surrounding material. It doesn't even affect the hardening.

Thanks Vilm and Thor.

I've not seen or hear of laser welding around here; makes sense that it could do fine work.

But I'm guessing the cost would be pretty steep for a frame "covered" with pitting.

I may have hit the point of diminishing returns as Thor observes. If it were one of a kind or even one of a few, it would be somewhat different.

It works as it is, the history is still there in spite of it's neglected condition.

August 23, 2015 Update

Got the rust blued '06 frame back from C. Danner, a couple pictures are below after I strawed the small parts today and got it back together. I let the mag release get too hot and it ran to blue, so when motivated, I'll do it over.

Danner's rust blue is nearly an exact match for the original blue as seen on the original upper and original finish grip safety.

That ugly side plate is an original number "11"; some day I may work on it to remove pits and have Danner re-blue it, again.

I do need to find a commercial take down lever, #11 would be nice.

So, it is finished for now. Will fire it again tomorrow and expect it to do as well as it did before,
which is to say no "problems" at all.

It is a cool shooter,
and doesn't look bad at all from 5 feet away!:D

Pictures from today and three from the "original" condition.

It's very enjoyable to see your end result. It is if you have "frozen" the pistol in its present condition, awaiting the time or resources or technology to complete the restoration.

The 'conventional wisdom' in the world of older firearms is that bluing over pitting is something that shouldn't be done. Looking at the result here, I just love it when such conventional wisdom is turned on its head. I think your solution is very good.

Was the old rust removed before bluing, if so how was it removed? I've read about immersion in a solution bath/application of electrodes, and wonder if that was used here.

4 scale,
thanks- what to do was indeed a puzzle. But as you say, at least it is stable at present- and useable:D

As to de-rusting, I used a fine wire wheel. The rust blueing actually removes any rust as part of the process, since converting the surface to "rust or iron oxide" is the mechanism of rust blueing.

I was not satisfied with the look of the side plate, and have spent an hour or so this pm mechanically removing pits from it. It will be better, but I can't get them all without filing and sanding all the metal away! Will send it back to Mr. Danner to but the finish back on it.

As far as your side plate goes, you might ask Charles about that. I asked him once about TIG welding and he mentioned he has access to that. Perhaps you could adopt just the side plate as a project and weld in the larger pits you cannot sand or file out. Even when you cannot restore an entire piece, there is satisfaction to be had by doing a part of it.

That is a possibility, but I think I'm ok with the progress so far on
"improving" the side plate. A completely "pit free" side plate would not look right either.

I also found and re-strawed a commercially numbered take down lever, which looks much better to me.;)

Current status and before pictures below.

I need to do a little more work on the side plate to straighten up the raised part.