Two K Date Sub Variations
 

Here are two sub-variations of the K (1934) date P08 manufactured by Mauser (S/42).

Attempting to rearm, Hitler started to mass produce weapons with secret codes to initially hide their activities. The K was stamped on the receiver breech where the acceptance date usually went. The toggle links were stamped with S/42 to hide the manufacturer's identity.

These P08s represent the 2nd and 4th sub-variations of the K date P08. The 2nd variation is distinctive with numerous upper case S stamping marks and the front sight mount set back from the muzzle. The 4th variation has fewer markings than the other K date variations and was smaller production.

More K Photos
 

Enjoy

Still More K Photos
 

Enjoy

Enjoy, indeed! Thanks.
dju

Those are some sweet Ks........It always puzzled me about the front sight setback on those. It seems the barrel configuration had been standardized for many years, and there had to be some reason to go out of their way to change it?

Beautiful guns Dick, thanks for the "show and tell".
Regards, Norm

Wow! Outstanding!!!

REally nice, thanks for posting.
One really must wonder about the front sight change logic- if there was any!

K Date Sight
 

As with all manufacturing companies getting the product delivered is essential. I believe that the muzzle mount set back was a manufacturing error. The pistols were shipped with the out of spec barrels to meet their delivery commitments.

Great guns, Dick, thanks for the mini exposition! I like the Gothic S stamped all over!

The set back sight barrel looks a lot like those barrels made by Hämmerli for the Swiss Lugers imported by Stoeger.

Very nice! :thumbup:

Dick, is it that the sight is set back or the barrel band is actually longer??? :confused:

Good eyes Rich! The barrel band is definitely longer.

With a dial caliper I measured the barrel band length. The 2nd sub variation K date band length is .665 inches while other P08 bands measure .582 inches. The sight base on the 2nd sub variation K date is .122 inches from the muzzle while other P08s measure .049 inches.

You guys have a great eye for detail.

Dick, why do you suppose this was done??? :confused:

It's hard to imagine Mauser making a mistake...Maybe like Ron suggested, the barrels were sub-contracted and used regardless???

"You guys have a great eye for detail. "

That's why they pay us the big bucks...
dju

The 2nd sub variation K date Luger is the only P08 that I am aware of with the longer barrel band and sight base set back. It is very possible that this feature was a result of a sub contractor tool setup.

These barrels were used to complete the pistols. We know from later Luger variations that Mauser/DWM kept inventories of unused components and never threw anything away.

Thought I would share some history with ya'll.

I started surfing through the Gortz & Sturgess encyclopedia searching for a clue regarding the unique foresight bed on the earlier of these K dates. There is a picture of a Commercial Mauser Banner Luger with this foresight bed. The caption with the picture reads, "short lived early Mauser pattern found in mid-range K dated (1934) military P.08s with the longer muzzle band and the foresight bed set back." According to the narrative there were approximately 3,800 of this sub-variation manufactured.

I could not find any other reference to this longer muzzle band and the foresight bed set back mentioned, but it is a very large information source.

In 1925 the Reichswehr initiated an armament expansion program. The Reichswehr developed the secret German manufacturers codes we give Hitler credit for. Starting in 1925 a year code was developed to 1935. The P.08 years we are familiar with are K (1934) and G (1935). Additionally a alpha/number code was developed for manufacturers. S was for small arms to be followed by a number for the manufacturer. 42 was the number for Mauser. That is how we got S/42.

I think that is on page 612 of the DVD. :)

The barrel length following the Treaty of Versailles was to be max 100 m/m

Point was moot, i.e. 100mm max, in 1934 after re-armament started, maybe even after 1928 when the IMKK left Germany.
JMHO.

Very cool Dick!

These are the five variations (not that i know anything about them) from a late friends collection - shows a close up of the four barrel bands and the rest - they are all K dates.....

Dick

Really great guns, thanks a lot for your interesting exposition, I've got a K date too # 9114 should be a 4th sub variation.

Thanks again an regards

Sergio

Sergio,
The Gortz & Sturgess encyclopedia states that there are no inspection marks after 91XX. The inspection mark is the funny shaped S on all the K date P.08 parts. If your pistol does not have all the S marks you probably have a 4th sub-variation K date.

Still's "Third Reich Lugers" lists the production of the K date at 10,930. Combine the information from both reference sources indicates there were approximately 800 4th sub-variation K date lugers manufactured. A rare variation.

Ed,
It looks like you cornered the market on K date Lugers. I am impressed.

I wish, I believe they are all still sitting at his house (he passed away 5 years ago?)

:banghead:

Ed

K date lugers have always been fascinating. Mauser's first attempt of a completely manufactured luger. It was almost like they were trying different things to "get it right". One finding not mentioned in this thread is the coming and going of the Mauser "hump" which appears to be at random throughout the K date production. I believe one of the two examples of Dick Herman's shows the hump. It's hard for me to postulate why this feature, supposedly to prevent the loss/migration of the rear receiver pin, would randomly come and go only to appear for good in late 1937 until the end of production.

Any serial numbers tied to the different variations?
I have a K date?
Thanks
Jack

Once again from the Gortz & Sturgess encyclopedia K date reference.

The principle way to identify the different K date Sub-Variations is the S style inspection markings on the small parts.

1st Sub-Variation has Fraktur S (Funny S) on sn less than 17xx.
2nd Sub-Variation has Fraktur S and Roman S between sn 17xx and 56xx.
3rd Sub-Variation had Roman S between sn 56xx and 91xx.
4th Sub-Variation has no small part S markings above 91xx

Also the 1st and 2nd Sub-Variations also utilize a Fraktur S (Funny S) on the toggle link S/42. Subsequent K dates have a Roman S on the toggle link S/42.

I just realized my 2nd sub-variation is numbered beyond the published serial number range, sn 5970. It has all the characteristics of a 2nd variation, it could be transitional or just one the authors had no information on.

Dick,
thanks again for your reference, I haven't got Gortz & Sturgess book, but on page 106 of Still's "Third Reich Lugers" and from pictures on page 17 and following made me come to conclusion that I have a sbv 4 (without the hump).
Regards.

Sergio

Sergio, you can buy the 3-volume book set on DVD from Simpson's here in the US. Cost is minimal [$35USD + S&H]; if you are interested instructions are in last page of this thread -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=29036