Need some expert opinions please!
 

I've been hunting around the internet and after hearing some positive input about Legacy Collectibles on this forum, I'm interested in a Black Widow Rig and maybe a Kreighoff. Would any of you Luger Gurus mind taking a look at Tom's links of these and give me your thoughts. Thanks in advance for your time and years of experience. regards, syd

Black Widow Rig: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luger-rig.html

1937 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...off-luger.html

1936 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luftwaffe.html

PS - What bothers me on the Krieghoffs (except they are so pricey) is the fact that the magazine is not numbered on both pistols. Is that correct for these year Krieghoffs?

Well, you're considering some rather nice collectible Lugers.

Legacy Collectibles is known as a reputable dealer, and has proven trustworthy from what I've heard. I have never dealt with them, so cannot give you personal experience.

Even though unnumbered, the bakelite based magazines on the Mauser you're looking at are considered matching.

People more familiar with the Krieghoff guns will be along to let you know if unmarked but E/2 waffenamt accepted magazines would be normal on the pre-war Krieghoff Lugers...

syd, that's a nice black widow rig. tom stands behind everything he sells period. he gets a lot of stuff in all the time so just ask him what you're looking for. i've purchased a half dozen from him. he and his sons run the shop. very nice people.

I own a 1937 and all looks the same! Mine has 2 identical serialed and proofed mags to the gun, however theirs has the correct proof although unumbered. With that in mind it is still desirable~They are so sweet! The 1936 and 1937 pre-war were their finest! I would go with the 1937 because of the mag and looks a little nicer~ Eric

mrerick - thanks for your thoughts on the black widow. I know those mags are fxo37 proofed with no serial numbers. Does the finish appear to be original? Anything that would concern you? The "y" block serial numbers look in line for a 41 byf BW. Do the grips look authentic. That seems to be the easiest way boost a "regular" byf 41, that and a couple of fxo37 mags that one May have laying around.

Alright you Kreighoff experts - what say ye on the 36 & 37? I don't want a Kreighoff that I need to make excuses for! Thx to all for there prompt and informative replies. Syd

If plan to buy the best of the best, then, need to find one nice sample with two matching number magazines. More expensive though.

Well, Tom is probably one of the top experts on Krieghoffs, and he is honest (disclaimer, he is a friend of mine), so, if he tells you that it is good, it is :)

Please buy some books and read lots on the forum, as expecting a matching magazine is not very common :D . I always say, buy a book, then a luger, so buy Gibson's Krieghoff book.

Ed

PS: Please realize that most of us say Black Widow, but its a USA, made up term, but I expect you read that in the FAQ?

NO, sorry :banghead:

A BW could have two bakelite bottoms and that would be matching?

A Krieghoff with two matching mags will probably cost $15,000

Start a new guy off easy, not expecting the world. :banghead:

Alvin / Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. So Kreighoff's are correct with numbered magazines. Blank bottoms (whether proofed or not), are not correct?
I understand that the BW fxo37 mags are all not numbered- right?
I did buy Gibson's kreighoff book but it is absolutely overwhelming!

Have to be careful and Don't mix up Mauser vs Krieghoff - different manufactures. And proofed but not numbered (armorer replacement) are something different....

Yes, I think the "Black Widow" was a creation of Ralph.

Fred

Syd

First of all welcome to this Luger forum made by Luger enthusiasts.

With all the respect I only wonder why you'd like to start right from the top; I mean Kreighoff Lugers are quite rare and expensive, and if you really wish to learn about the Luger World I would suggest you to start from the bottom, so read as much as possible first, from books and from the two main Luger forums, and you'll soon discover how much there is to learn.

Then go to look for a very inexpensive P08, start taking it down and reassemble until you manage to know how a Luger works.
Just a tought, still to each his own.
FWIW

Sergio

One thing to remember about Lugers... The more expensive they are, the more likely that something has been done to make them more rare. I'm not saying that this is what you are looking at here, but it is a general rule to understand.

"Boosting" takes place all the time. Some of the characteristics can be very subtle. For that reason, I always recommend attending "Luger University" before investing money in guns. "Luger University" consists of studying the best and most recently available reference books. They are expensive, but can save you money over time and increase your enjoyment of the history of all this.

If you are just interested in investing for financial reasons, this will probably seem like a waste of time. You can trust a reputable dealer to do the study and evaluation for you. You pay for this (perhaps 35% of the purchase price) and are much less likely to get into a problem.

The financial value of Lugers improves in ways that are difficult to predict. It's because of supply and demand. The supply is fixed, and somewhat unstable. Guns come out of collections at random intervals, and some collectible guns are lost each year to damage.

Marc

The unnumbered E/2 magazine with the 1937 HK is questionable.

Reading books, starting from common variations, gradually getting familiar with the subject C&R and moving towards rare variations, that style matches Chairman Mao's revolutionary pattern -- "occupying countryside first, gradually moving towards central cities". It took Mao 22 years to gain the whole control.

Jumping directly into nice rare C&R, that's Lenin's October revolutionary pattern -- uprising directly in a few big cities, setup government, then moving towards outside. That's fast.

Which way is better... depends on context...

To continue the analog... Jump start in nice rare C&R could happen in this context -- when big name collectors selling their lifetime collections... Smith collection, Sturgess collection, Schroeder collection, etc. That's great moment to jump start. In 1917, Lenin found "power is dropped on the street, we just need to pick it up". Nice rare C&R could appear in group in short period of time, past few years proved that, buyer just need to pick them up (of course, still need money, but that's expected).

Mags from my 1937~

cirelaw - that's what I thought a Kreighoff mag would look like - serial numbered and proofed. not just a blank bottom run of the mill mag. Congrats on having two matching ones. just one question (and don't flame this newby), but should one of them have a "+" sign indicating the extra mag like the Mausers do? Just curious - I haven't read my Krieghoff Parabellum book yet!

To all - I do appreciate all of the responses and good advice (particularly about taking my time which is not my M.O.!). I've always liked lugers but I just want to get a pretty decent collectable that even may even have a slim chance to go up in value - everything else I buy goes down! lol, Syd

Syd,

Eric's magazines are correctly marked and proofed for a 1937 manufactured gun. There were a few blued bodies magazines supplied during 1937, so either plated or blued body with upside down acceptance proof are correct.

Spare Krieghoff magazines were not marked with a + sign.

It would be incorrect to assume that the inspection and marking conventions followed by the LWaA are the same as those followed by the Wehrmacht inspectors at Mauser.

Additionally, because of the much smaller volume of HK production, their serialization was numerical from 1 to end of production which was in the 13,000 range. However this broke down in later years and it would incorrect to assume that lower serial numbers were related to earlier years and higher numbers to later years, particularly evident in 1943 and 1944.

John

It took me years to find a complete rig! Wait till one comes along with at least one matching, correct mag. They are out there as these. They were German air force and survived a lot better than down in the dirt. If you come across one share it. That why we are here! You have the experts above! Eric

Thank You John for your magazine clarification! I will post the entire rig in the morning including the original Krieghoff manual that came with the gun~~~Eric

I took These this morning~~

This 1937 Krieghoff As My Last Luger From Ralph Shattuck Before He Died~
 

I took These this morning~~

Eric - that rig is absolutely beautiful. Thanks for the pix. I'm over here drooling!

John - thanks for your input on the mags - whether they are aluminum colored as Eric's or blued as you stated.

Does anybody have any input on the Black Widow that I posted at the beginning of this thread? I think I'm going to wait a while on a Kreighoff as the BWs don't seem to be quite so expensive and rare.

You guys on this forum have certainly been great. Thanks for all of the comments, pix and advice. All the best, syd

if you buy it you can't go wrong. black widows are extremely sought after lugers. the one on legacy is very nice. why don't you call them up and talk to tom? tell him what you're looking for. he will work with you.nobody has a better return policy than they do, not that you'd need it. adriaan

Syd,

Well, I looked at the Mauser P.08 rig on the Legacy site.

Here are some comments:

1. The gun is a Mauser made, Model P.08, manufactured at their Oberndorf facility in late 1941, November time frame. Maybe a bit earlier. Just an estimate. It appears properly proofed and serialized, and being in the y-block it certainly was made in the time frame when they were using Black Bakelite grip panels.

2. The two magazines are typical Type 6 magazines manufactured under Haenel license by Manteuffel &Co in Zella Mehlis and commonly issued with late production 41 byfs. As a point of interest, the firm used forced labor from the Froehlichen Mann Labor Camp. And, if I may be granted some liberty with the German language, we therefore had "Happy Men making magazines for the Man Devil". :)

3. The holster appears used but righteous, made by Walter Schurmann & Co. Lederwarenfabrik, in the town of Bielefeld, sometime in 1942 and is properly marked with a P.08 stamp. As you could already tell, because of the date it probably was not issued with the gun but is certainly period correct.

4. Can't say much about the tool. Really need to have it in hand and listen to it.

Bottom line though is that you need to trust your supplier who in this case is Tom Whiteman. He is good people.

Hope this helps.

John

Adriaan - thanks for your input. I'm glad nothing glares out at you and you speak highly of Tom Whiteman as the rest of this forum does.

John - thank you as well for your detailed description of the pistol, mags, tool and particularly the holster. You just can't get this info in a book. I bought "Lugers at Random" and they do not even mention Black Widows in it which seems kind of odd. But maybe back in the day it was published, the BWs were the "red headed step children at a family reunion" from what I've picked up in my readings on this forum.

Thanks again to everyone for their help. I'll give Tom a call and maybe we can get something worked out. Best to all, Syd

Lots of good advice in this thread.

I have heard "Black Widow" was a descriptive/marketing term coined by the late Luger dealer Ralph Schattuck to described salt blued Mauser Lugers with black bakelite grips/magazine bottoms. See FAQ for manufacture dates. I believe he popularized the term after the Lugers at Random book was published. Those Lugers have a decidedly dark appearance compared to generally earlier models. While I prefer the look of models that included strawed (light colored) parts and wooden grips, such as the gorgeous Kreighoff above, the beauty of collecting is you need only satisfy your own tastes.

Syd,

You are welcome.

You will not see the term Black Widow in older books. Some of the newer books use the term. This is because the term has absolutely no relevance to the manufacture of the P.08, or its usage in the field, or the unit to which it was assigned.

Therefore to the serious collector it has no relevance whatsoever. At best, it may be given a status as some sub-variation i.e. examples of late war Mauser production.

Don and Joop in the Mauser Parabellum acknowledge the term ascribing it to the USA Based Marketing and Selling Machine in order to hype its characteristics and therefore be able to charge more for a standard issue gun, made late in the war so its finish was poor due to less polishing; its magazines and grip panels made of plastic to save costs and increase sturdiness (the walnut grip panels were very susceptible to cracking in the field).

AND IT WORKED!! Sadly they were successful beyond their dreams and hundreds of 41 byf pistols with one matching or perhaps a non-matching correct magazine were converted to Black Widows. I have even seen guns made before the byf era "converted" to Black Widows even though the black grip panels and black bottom magazines did not exist before 1941. And people buy them, pay exorbitant prices and believe they have a rare pistol. Or one used by the dreaded Gestapo or the murderous SS.

And it goes on today and honest 1941s, and to a lesser extent, 1942 donor guns lose their collector value and are lost forever as "original/correct" examples of WWII production. They don't have to worry about grips matching. No worries about matching serial numbers on the magazines. In an instant, they create a fully matching rig with gun, 2 "correct' magazine and a period correct tool, a holster picked up at a gun show. Instant complete and matching rig and because it is a "Black Widow" sold for $1000-1500 more than they could get for the honest gun.

Okay, okay, I'll stop my rant and get off my soap box. But serious collectors take their responsibilities seriously. We are custodians of pieces of history to be preserved and passed down to following generations. We should not be manufacturing pieces of history, passing it off as something more valuable or mysterious or whatever.

JMVHO. Sorry if I have offended anyone. And... sorry for the long post. But if just one person reads this, gets a little more educated, and understands what a Black Widow really is; or IS NOT, then I will have done my job.

John

If collect one Luger, byf 41 42 is a great choice. In many C&R categories, very early variation and very late variation have special position. In Luger context, Luger 1900 and byf 41 or 42 are in this position. Just like conehammer and Model 1930 in C96 context. There are Krieghoff variations being even later, but KH is special interest item, not as generic as Mauser, I would think KH's position in Luger domain is not unlike Astra 900 in broom's domain.

John, I appreciate you devotion, vigor and style of writing. Go at it!! I wish more of us would express their knowledge and share with us all. Knowledge is useless unless made available! Please continue posting no matter how long or often as the lugers deserve the best from us all! There are no answers without questions! Eric

I can only hope and wish that the term " black widow" would vanish forever from the luger world. We as collectors need to quit using this sales pitch only term. Bill

For what its worth~~http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/...ic-pistol.aspx

A Video On The So-called 'Black Widow' Video ~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06y-fwN_xBQ

I agree Bill but its how its been labeled!!! I think its degrading! Does the term only apply to Mausers?

There is an old adage that goes something like this: Some people are good at selling the steak while others may be great at selling just the sizzle.
We are some like the first and some like the latter.
We should each know where we stand; but still appreciate others' positions.
Thanks
Jack

I found an article that also refers to that term!http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-told-pistols/

Bill

I agree with you; to me calling (for marketing reasons) those P08 "Black Widows" is a bit like calling "1906/24" what really is a W+F Bern 1906
I'm afraid these are some of those deep rooted bad habits that will be quite difficult to eradicate.

Sergio