Looking for more info. BYF 41 SN-3877
 

I am new to the Luger forum and also a new collector just getting started. I have recently acquired my first Luger and am looking for more information on it. I know a little bit about it assuming the information I have been told is correct. All serial numbers match except for the 2 mags. Picture quality may not be that good as all I have available at this time is my phone. I can get higher res. pics. later if necessary.

Buy this book, first. I know, you already bought your first P.08. This will tell you a mountain of info and is worth the price on the secondary market. It will save you money on future purchases. Place a want to buy on the collector forums, one may turn up at a reasonable price.

"The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946, Analysis of a Million Luger Pistols"

Welcome to the collecting world!

G2

I've got no connection to the seller other than being a satisfied customer, but Gunshowbooks.com has it in stock for $349 which is about as cheap as I've seen it in a while.
http://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/...7&sid=NX6N7FeJ
HTH

YJ:
Get us some good photos and we'll tell you all that we can. Also, if you have specific questions, comments, gun history or doubts, be sure to add them.
Congratulations on your first Luger, and Welcome to the forum!
dju

Jack,

First welcome to the Forum.

There is a lot of help here and its relatively easy to tap. But.. although I will not harangue you about buying books, I must tell you that photos are important, if not indispensable, to us providing assistance to you.

So.. your gun. Well, you know it is a Model P.08 military issue sidearm and in 1941 was standard issue to German Forces. It was made in Oberndorf at the Mauser facility.

Now as to serial number. Are you sure it is 3877?? Is there no scriptic suffix letter under the serial number on the front of the frame??

The serial number of a Model P.08 is made up of the number plus suffix or no suffix; and according to most purists the chamber date or code. That is the unique identifier for a model P.08. This is important because there were about 130,000 P.08s made in 1941, a little over 10,000 per month. If you gun has no suffix, it was made late in the year November to December time frame.

Also around the ns block of 10,000 guns the inspector changed from Eagle 655 Eagle 655 to Eagle 655 Eagle 135.

But you should know that there were about 11-12 other guns marked 41 byf that also used 3877 as the suffixes ranged from the o-block through the alphabet to the b-block.

So you can see that if we had pictures of the right side of the receiver and the front of the frame where the inspector proofs and serial number respectively are shown, it would answer a lot of questions about when the gun was made.

In any case, I hope this helps.

John

guns3545:

The P.38 was standard issue in 1941
; the P.08 was substitute standard.

Fred

Fred,

Technically, maybe true. The order formally designating the P.38 as the service standard was signed on April 26, 1940 after the conclusion of the Fourth Variation Zero Series. But Formal Adoption and reality differ. In reality "what was standard" really depended on which branch and type unit.

In 1941, Walther was the only manufacturer actually delivering P.38s and had no where near the capacity to meet the Heereswaffenamt requirements given the decision to fight a multi-fronted war and the rise of Waffen SS units in addition to the Wehrmacht's, Navy's and Luftwaffe's needs, not to mention the Police. Just look at Walther's 1941 production numbers and the manufacturing shakedown that occurred in 1941.

But enough said. Too much time already spent on a subject really not at all relevant to the OP's question.

But if you want to start a discussion on service standards and their evolution, you can always start your own thread.


John

guns3545:

A good answer, and as you probably already know that only about 140,000 P.38's were mfg. in the 1940/41 period, not nearly enough to supply the German Armed Forces and many P.08's were issued.

Thank you

Fred

Thank you all for the responses. I seem to be having a problem posting the pictures. I thought
I posted them but they obviously did not attach.

Pics.
 

ok, let's try this again. I think, hope, I have the pictures attached this time.

Jack:
Congratulations! As you know the photos lack clarity for close up exam and nit-picking, however it looks very nice from what I can see. And if you want to spike the collective blood pressure around here just refer to it as a "black widow" model.
Any specific questions?
dju

Appears to be a nice, Mauser produced byf 41. Don't know if the grips are real or reproductions. The pistol has a letter suffix to the serial number, but I can't read it.

Jack,

Nice looking P.08.

The serial number is 3877s, indicating that it was probably made in May of 1941 but that is only an approximation.

The vast majority of the s-block guns were allocated to the Army. Some went to the Airforce and a much lesser number to the Navy.

It probably left the factory with wood grip panels marked with an Eagle 655 stamp rather than the last two digits of the serial number. It was most likely equipped with two extruded blued body and a serialized aluminum based magazines with the spare magazine marked with a +.

Note that I have used the word probably a lot. The reason is that in the year 1941 several changes were made to the delivery spec.

In mid-year there were transitions to the Type 6 black plastic bottom magazine replacing type 4 and 5 magazines.

Also around mid-year, sporadically black plastic grip panels started to appear, replacing the walnut grip panels

Any combination of two or three different types of magazine and two types of grip panels are theoretically possible in this time frame.

You may also want to carefully examine the P.08 stamp on the right side of the frame. Is the punctuation mark between the P and the 08 square or round? This was another transition as the new marking standards came into play. The Heereswaffenamt wanted to make sure that personnel were clearly informed that this was a P.08 and not the new P.38. :)

Hope this helps.

John

If the magazines that came with your Luger are black bakelite based FXO magazines (E/37 WaffenAmt approval) they would be considered correct and matching for your pistol.

Try taking some pictures using a regular digital camera in natural light without the flash. It's easier to judge finish.

Congratulations, and welcome to the addiction!

For what can be seen from the pictures it looks like a fine gun, especially if it's all matching (except the mags)

Sergio

3877
 

Thanks again for the replies. Grips are original according to the gunsmith that looked at it and he did refer to it as a black widow. Can't tell if the punctuation between the P and the 08 is square or round. I know it's a very long shot but if the mag(s) were out there somewhere I certainly would like to acquire them. Any information on the mags I do have would be appreciated. Also are there any references out there that might give detailed information about the gun I have? Branch it was issued to, who it was issued to, etc.?

Some of the books guys MAY be able to tell you where the bulk of that block of guns went, but honestly those records are pretty scarce. Specifically who got your gun just ain't happenin'.
There is a magazine number list that you can put your numbers down on, and who knows? But it's a long shot.
It is my understanding that the black plastic UNNUMBERED late FXO mags. are also correct, so that is the way most collectors go on these latter guns.
dju

Jack,

Thanks for the additional information and pictures.

Unfortunately it is difficult to say where this pistol was issued and used. Most information about provenance comes when a vet has brought it back and supplied information where and how it was captured. Generally speaking, guns that have seen combat are well worn and guns that have not, or have been assigned to non-front line units are in better shape. But these are only assumptions.

In the s-block, about 7400 guns went to the Army, 2400 to the Luftwaffe mainly for Air Defense and Paratroop Units. The Navy received the remaining 200 or so guns. THESE ARE ESTIMATES. There is no good way to know. We used to be able identify Navy guns by their unit markings but this practice was stopped in 1940.

Question: Are both magazines marked the same?. I cannot tell. The lower magazine is a Haenel made (that's code 122), accepted by the inspector located there, Eagle 37. From the serial number it was originally issued with a 1940 code 42 gun. Early byf guns would have been equipped with this magazine type but only to about the p-block. Later guns would have Haenel (code was changed to fxo in 1941), also inspected and accepted by Eagle 37.

The type 6, black plastic base magazines started to appear around mid-year.

Can't tell, but I doubt that the body of the magazine has an upside down P.08 stamped on it. The P.08 marking requirement only came into effect on January 1, 1941.

I don't need to tell you that finding even one matching magazine will be difficult. As I mentioned, this gun was manufactured when the transition from serial numbered to non-serial numbered magazines was occurring, so it is entirely possible that a fxo 37 magazine with an unmarked aluminum bottom would be the type issued originally with the gun. Still difficult to find plain bottom but infinitely easier than finding matching serials.

The fall back plan employed by many collectors would be: "Well it is theoretically possible that a Type 6 magazine would have been issued with the gun, (and besides it already has black plastic grip panels on it) so let me go and buy a couple magazines." This plan is eminently doable. All is takes is a few dollars and care to insure that you are buying an original fxo type 6 magazine. Counterfeits abound!!

Hope this helps.

John

Jack - beautiful luger. the finish looks great. is it original or has it been re-blued? I'm a newby as well, so hopefully I am not insulting you when I ask this question.

The guys on this forum really know their lugers and have helped me tremendously in my quest for a couple of lugers. Welcome to the forum, syd

Syd:
I can't see anything that suggests re-blue, but either better photos or hands-on inspection would be necessary to be more certain. But there are certainly no signs of buffing.
I'd be pretty comfortable going with "original blue".
And "nice gun".
dju

Syd, thanks for the reply. You will never insult me by asking a question. The gun has not been re-blued. This according to the gunsmith that examined it and the small amount of wear. It's funny the more information I get from the forum and in my own research the more questions I come up with. This process is fascinating and addictive at the same time. As best I can tell from my research there were about 3 million lugers made from 1908-1945 give or take a few hundred thousand. Does anybody have an approximation on how many were black widows? Any guess on value? I want to make sure I am properly insured.

Jack,

Mauser made about 1 million Lugers. None were made as Black Widows. :)

This was/is an unknown term except in the USA; and certainly not one used to describe the Model P.08.

However, there were about 120,000 to 130,000, maybe a little more, late production P.08s made from late 1941 and all through 1942 by Mauser. And there were some "clean out the parts", so called "out of cycle" production in 1943.

This late production variation had black plastic grip panels and Type 6 magazines which had a back plastic bottom.

The reason it is difficult to say exactly how many had Late Production characteristics is that there was no definite cut off between switching from wood to plastic grip panels and aluminum bottom to black plastic bottom magazines.

But it started in the middle of 1941 and by 1942, virtually all production had Late Production characteristics.

But again, this is subject to exception, because gun manufacturers NEVER throw anything away unless the part or component has been "condemned". So if they found a bucket of Type 5 magazines they used them. If they found a case of wood grip panels they used them.

Hope this helps. Again too many words but unfortunately there are few absolutes or one word answers in collecting. But, in any case, the few absolutes that do exist should be respected.

Hope this helps,

John

Just great, but who of all persons invented the "black widow" name?

Gebirg:

Ralph Shattuck was most likely the one who came up with the "Black Widow" designation.
It is a marketing ploy only and has no other meaning.

Fred

Fred,
Thank you:-)
We know that name here in Norway also, but we dont like it or use it in my collector group...

Ralph needed a strategy to romanticize those "cheap late war pistols with plastic grips and unmatched, plastic magazine bottoms". Although hard to believe now, those guns were once looked upon as "less desirable".
By creating an intriguing comic book name for them, (and perhaps spinning some tall tales about their alleged purpose/use), interest and a market were created for these late production guns.

"Gunsmiths", "dealers", "relatives of the vet who brought it back" stories and descriptions all need to be taken with a grain of salt. :)

My LGS is a great guy but is not knowledgeable about Lugers or pretty much anything military. He started a business to earn a living, meaning he is a JOATAMON. :D

John/guns3545 seems knowledgeable and his comments are certainly illuminating. I'm not a collector but what he has told you is way more than any other single Luger I've read about here in six years. :p

Lugers have passed through many hands over the years. Some owners have 'improved' them by substituting parts that may not have been original. Grips come to mind immediately. Bakelite grips are to my mind more desirable than plastic and can be distinguished by methods described elsewhere in this forum [Search].

Nice Luger; hopefully the first of many. :thumbup:

Dealers normally handling American guns in business cannot tell much those German pistols. I have met quite a few examples in the past. The difference is too big to apply one domain into another. But, that may not apply to European gun dealers,,, they handle European guns everyday.... Is that a safe assumption? No?

I think it boils down to experience, combined with the ability to do research, along with a big helping of mechanical aptitude. We don't really know something unless we have accurate information about it. So, although European dealers are probably generally more experienced in handling European guns, an individual dealer can be totally ignorant about one make/model or another.

My experience, albeit perhaps still callow, with toggle pistols has accumulated as time has progressed. Having learned a bit about the Parabellum, and acquired some examples, I added Erma's toggle pistols to my list of pursuits/interests. Although I could disassemble a Luger entirely at that point, these skills were not particularly transferable to the care and maintenance of an Erma, even though they both have "toggles". I encountered a cheap, but ailing Erma at an Ohio gun show. After embarrassing myself by my demonstrated inability to field strip this one, I found out how to do it after returning home.

As suggested, it is impossible for every "gunsmith" to know everything. Seek advice from the knowledgeable. Due diligence is absolutely paramount in discovering just who this might be. There are too many credulous collectors who do not not know how to judge the quality of advice. This keeps prices up, I think, and confusion rampant--thus thrusting the door even wider open for charlatans who may wish to enter! Misinformation, even (maybe particularly) that which is well-meant, is not a good thing.

(:rolleyes:/rant)