Eric needs help with ID an usual rifle~~
 

I bought this at a gunshow in the 80s in Pa. It weighs a ton~~Any help with what it is!! Eric

Rifle
 

Eric- I believe you have a Yugoslavian Model 1948 98k Short Rifle. You are correct with the weight. It is 10#. The caliber is 7.92x57mm. The crest is the Communist Yugoslavian on the receiver ring.
Hope this helps.

Eric

I had one of them together with my collection of K98k
It's some sort of Mauser K98K made in Jugoslavia immediately after the WWII

Nice gun.

Sergio

Eric

I post some picturesmof the same sort of gun, the first four of them belong to a M48 made at the Kragujevac Arsenal marked "Preduzece44" with German K98K parts, and the remaining two pictures belong to a Zastava M48A that used to be made from 1952 until 1965.

Sergio

Simply Beautiful~ Why were the so heavy?

The stock is made of teak or something similar. I have one of these M48's. It's a great shooter.

Rifle in question was made in "PREDUZECE 44" (written in Cyrilc on this rifle at that time, meaning "enterprise" or factory 44), sometime after after WW2. There were many produced with lettering stamped in Latin also.

"Preduzece 44" was a wartime code for Zastava factory in the city of Kragujevac, in today's Serbia. At the time the rifle was produced, Serbia was one of the states in the country called "Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia" (Federativna Narodna Republika Jugoslavia). Rifle is also stamped FNRJ (in Cyrilic). Country changed it's name to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and the later produced rifles were stamped SFRJ. Some were stamped in Cyrilc, and some in Latin lettering (Yugoslav state of Serbia, and today's Serbia uses Cyrilic alphabet, and other five republics use Latin alphabet). All former Yugoslav republics are independent countries today, to include (from West to East) Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Hertzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, and Macedonia. Serbian province of Kosovo declared independence, but is not recognized by UN as of today.

M48 rifle was a standard battle rifle of JNA (Yugoslav People's Army - Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija), that was officially adopted as such in 1948 (superseded by SKS Simonov type made by Zastava with official nomenclature of M59/66 chambered in 7,62X39). Shortly after 1948, the model pictured in the OP was created, and labeled M48A, and the difference was the sheet metal stamped magazine floor plate, front barrel band, and trigger guard (original M48 version had those parts from milled steel).

I own an earlier example (milled M48) in "never issued" condition with three digit serial number, among my collection of Yugoslav small arms from 1943-2000 (the period in which SFRJ existed as a country). Since I've seen these rifles with six digit serial number, mine is really an "early" one! I own one specimen (in MINT condition) of every single infantry weapon from that period made by Zastava, that has a rifled bore (to distinguish from smoothbore mortars, grenade launchers, and flare pistols) .

If you folks are interested, visit Zastava website, and read about the history of the factory from the times of Austro-Hungarian Empire (prior to WW 1), till today. Factory is still producing some fascinating weaponry, and supplying Serbian military at this time, despite being extensively bombed in 1999 by American B1 Stealth Bombers, flying sorties from Ramstein in Germany, and Aviano in Italy. Zastava also produces MANY civilian weapons (hunting rifles and pistols), and is distributed in USA by Mitchell for the last 40+ years.

The rifle in question is the first firearm I ever live fired (at 14 years old), and it was a painful experience. Kicks like a mule, and the steel metal butplate doesn't help. Since I grew up, it didn't hurt any more, and I REALLY enjoy shooting it today on my ranch. Mine is a 2" MOA rifle (at 100 meters) with mint bore, and I use PPU ammo, produced in the 70s. I kept mine in the original condition (iron sights), but MANY of these rifles were used in action during the Balkan wars of the 90s, in Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo, equipped with optics.

I can consistently hit a frozen milk jug at 600 meters with mine (open sights). All Zastava arms are built VERY beefy, and made to last MANY generations. None of the weapons made in Yugoslavia at that time have chromed bores, and the Yugo ammo is corrosive. This means immediate cleaning after shooting, and for me that's a non issue, because I was drilled to do this, and I actually enjoy it.

P.S. for Sergio

The rifle you describe as "having K98 parts" is most likely a REAL K98. MANY thousands of these were captured by Yugoslav Partisans in 1945, and many more delivered by Germany as a part of war reparations, to SFRJ in the early 50s. They were scrubbed of Nazi markings, restamped and put in reserve. Many thousands were issued to the units of TO (Teritorijalna Odbrana - Territorial Defense in translation, or basically the equivalent of National Guard in US) as late as 1980s. Some of these (if carefully examined) can still have some tiny Nazi markings missed by the "scrubbers" (scrubbing was done by bored conscripts!), or deemed insignificant by the inspectors. Most had their stocks replaced, but quite a few still have original German laminated stocks.

Daniel

Yes in fact that rifle was made with parts coming from several German K98K assembled together, and although stamped M48 is closer to a K98K rather to a "genuine" M48.

Chapeau for hitting a bottle at 600 metres, especially with the original metallic sights, mine wasn't that accurate, at the time I used to get better results with a "Persian"



Sergio

Not a "bottle" Sergio. I don't know if you are familiar with one gallon milk (or juice) containers sold in US? I fill them with water, and put them in the freezer. They are FUN to blast from the distance. The size is similar to a human head (or a smaller watermelon). When hit frozen, they simply explode if hit by high powered rifle cartridge, which 7.92X57 certainly is.

Heck, they are fun to shoot when not frozen.
Jack

Daniel

Oh yes, sorry a gallon is a lot bigger that a bottle, still it's a very good hit! Congrats Daniel :thumbup:


Sergio

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/imagetext/1853-1914

If interested, one can read about the history of the gun making in Serbia/Yugoslavia here. On the left of the screen you can chose the period, and read the part that interests you, or read it all.

The website is written in English (other languages can be chosen), and few things are omitted, for reasons unknown to me. The factory was known by the name "Crvena Zastava" for the longest time in history of this factory. Yet,.....this name is widely misinterpreted in the west. Most people in the US translate the name as "Red Banner", which IMO is incorrect. As I am fluent in Serbo-Croatian (among other languages), and spent a considerable time of my life living in the former Yugoslavia, I can assure you that Yugoslavs (all of them, to include Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrin, and Macedonians) DO NOT use the word "Zastava" in the way Americans use the word "Banner". In the US "banner" can be ANY form of advertising banner, written display for all purposes, but as an example, Americans would NEVER refer to "Old Glory" as a "banner".

"Zastava" simply means "The Flag" (as the flag that officially represents one's country, or in this case......The Party)! I'll explain.

Since SFRJ was "one party political system" (ruled by KPJ - Komunisticka Partija Jugoslavije - Communist Party of Yugoslavia) and that party's official flag was a dead copy of the Soviet flag (solid red with gold hammer and sickle in the upper left corner, with words in gold over the top "Proleteri Svih Zermalja Ujedinite Se" (Proletariat of all Countries Unite), the factory was named "Red Flag". The term used widely for the party flag.

In the later years, KPJ changed its name to SKJ (Savez Komunista Jugoslavije - Union of the Communists of Yugoslavia), but the flag remained the same. The party flag was displayed along the official Yugoslavian flag, at all events, government offices, and such, along with the flag of the republic (state) in which the office was residing. In the US, Old Glory (Stars and Stripes) is displayed with the State Flag in the same fashion, but in Yugoslavia there were three flags on display, in courts, government installations, parades, national holidays, etc (National Flag, Red Flag, and the State Flag).

So this IS where "Crvena Zastava" got its name from. And it's not a "banner", but the official party flag.

After the war of the 90s, and disintegration of SFRJ, the word "Crvena" (Red) was omitted, and the factory was simply called "The Flag" (Zastava).

All former republics retained their tricolors as before, except the red star was taken out, replaced by the coat of arms (shield) of each republic (independent country today).

And now I'm done with the rant/history lesson. Like I said in one of my previous posts,......the fact that we are all interested in historical arms, makes me think we all have a certain fondness for the history in general. Yugoslav produced arms are of particular interest to me (as a collector/user), and I think they belong into the "upper tier" of military issued arms, in terms of their quality, serviceability, and longevity. I used them in action, and I use them weekly in recreational shooting today.

And to answer your question Eric..........

I own four rifles in 7.92X57. M48, Spanish La Coruna, Egyptian Hakim, and Yugo M76. I also own "neutered" M53 that is classified by ATF as a "rifle", but it's a semi version of German MG42.

7.92 Mauser caliber is by far my favorite cartridge to shoot, and it has similar ballistics to 30-06. It's a hard hitting round, with substantial recoil. To tame the recoil, one can either increase the weight of the weapon, or tap some gas to work the action (which lowers muzzle velocity naturally). As you probably know,.....Yugo M76, and Egyptian Hakim, are semi-autos. Recoil is negligible, but the weight of the weapon is there nevertheless. Partially due to extra parts needed, and the increased magazine capacity (10 in semis, and 5 in bolt actions). With semis I go through a lot more rounds per session, and I carry more on me when I go out (more weight).

Since I shoot all three regularly, I can tell you that the two semi-autos weigh even more than La Coruna, or M48. I never put any of them on the scale (nor I bothered to research "published" weight), but they sure feel heavier in my hand, and my horse probably notices the difference too (I ride into the mountain on horseback when I go shooting).

And back then when M48 was fielded, men were still men, and didn't need any "plastic guns", computers, and diapers. :cheers:

My Yugo M48 was in the cal. 8x57 JS like all the others Mauser K98K

Sergio

P.S.

"And back then when M48 was fielded, men were still men, and didn't need any "plastic guns"..."

I agree except on "plastic guns", since 1992 I think I've owned and used at the range at least a dozen of GLOCKs! :-)

I see the dimensions you posted Sergio, but all information that was available (still is) on K98, M48, and alike, says that 8mm Mauser (as it's called in the US) IS actually 7.92X57 as I was taught in the school in Yugoslavia. No doubt they knew what their bore diameter is? Heck,.....even PPU "sniper" ammo I'm using is headstamped 7.9! (I just looked).

Edited to add: I just looked closely, and you posted the case mouth dimension of the cartridge which is correct (with some tolerances depending on the manufacturer). But the bore itself IS 7.92 (measured from "land to land", NOT groove to groove!). Since the bullet IS 8mm+, smaller bore makes a nice "bite" on the bullet, and gives it the necessary rotation. Guns chambered in this caliber ARE 7.92, and the bullets are a tad bigger. Americans commonly refer to this caliber as "8mm Mauser", but Germans, Yugos, Spaniards, etc call it 7.92. Back in the day in Yugoslavia they called it simply "seven point nine millimeter" not bothering with remaining .02, and they stamped the ammo as such.

As far as "plastic guns", ....that was my feeble attempt at humor, because my favorite pistol IS Glock, and I own G26, and G17 (used to own G24, and G22 also, but didn't care much for .40 cartridge, so I sold them). When in need to take one with me, I take G26 every time, but for serious work I would take G17 (carried it in Bosnia in the 90s). I put about 1000 rounds through these two per year.

IF I could have ANY (imaginary) handgun, I would take Yugo M57 in 7.62X25 with double stacked mag, Glock "safe action", and no levers, safeties, and gadgets. I would also load it with "Hydra Shock" hollow points, or "Black Talons" for some good stopping power. As it is,.....M57 single stack, single action (with round nose FMJs) is great for plinking, but is far behind modern handguns, although an important part of my collection of Yugo weaponry.

Is ammo for this rifle available in the states? What is it! Tks

Did some "digging", and I think I know where the confusion is coming from.

Most European countries in the period (WW2, and in the years after) referred to their calibers by the dimension of the bore, measured from "land to land". I don't know about Italy though.

In Yugoslavia that was certainly the case. They called the Mauser cartridge 7.92X57mm. They also call 7.62X39 (and all others) by the dimension of the bore. All these weapons have slightly bigger bullets (for the reason mentioned in the above post).

Even P08 is stamped at the bottom of the barrel as 8.82 (or 8.83...I've seen both), but we all know that the bullet IS 9mm, right? In Europe 9mm Luger caliber is called "Long Nine" in some countries (including Yugoslavia), and .380 (or German 9mm Kurtz) is called "short nine".

Americans are masters of simplifying everything, and they sell the ammo in question as "8mm Mauser". They call all weapons by the diameter of the bullet, NOT by the size of the bore that shoots it! Throw in SAE measurements, and you have a nice confusion going. As we know, 7.62mm is .30 caliber in the US, 9mm is .380, and so on.

And in conclusion,......ALL Mauser rifles used by Germany were the same caliber as M24, M48, M48A, M53, MG42, MG34, etc. They produced the rifles in other calibers as well (7mm Mauser) for other countries.

Eric,......

8mm Mauser is ABUNDANT in the States. Either as a "military surplus" (cheap), or "commercial ammo" (spendy). All ammo websites have it for sale (AIM for example, but there are tons of others).

I prefer Yugo military surplus, and that's what I shoot. A friend of mine reloads his custom loads, and can shoot "groups" that look like cloverleaf. My military ammo does not shoot groups, but every shot is a "kill".

Commercial ammo is reloadable (Boxer primed) and non corrosive. Military surplus is not reloadable, Berdan primed, and corrosive. Commercial Boxer primed ammo has a much shorter "shelf life" than military Berdan primed ammo, and is much more expensive. If properly stored, Yugo military ammo has a shelf life of 50 years (per JNA manual), at which point it's suggested to rotate the stock. I'll be 60 this year. No need to "rotate" anything!

"Berdan" ammo is easily available and extremely cheap,actually it makes home reloading absolutely unworthy.

Sergio

Daniel

Some years ago when I tought I was a K98K collector... :rolleyes: I had also a couple of these, and I remember that the scope ZF41 nor ZF42 weren't really nothing spectacular and every time after a few shots of 8x57JS I used to end up with a sore shoulder...

... so I sold it all...

and started to collect Lugers.


Sergio

I know what you're saying.

ZF41 is my favorite for that period, but we all have to remember,......the rifles, AND the accessories, we are talking about here, belong to the certain time in history. Zeiss 41 was THE scope of the day, but just like weaponry advanced (in some ways), so did the optics.

It's unfair to compare ZF41 to the modern optics, just like it's unfair to compare a modern Mercedes to the one that drove Hitler around.

As far as "sore shoulder"........there is a way to hold the rifle to minimize the impact. Some people even wear shoulder pads over the shooting shoulder (I don't). I fire 3-4 magloads out of my M48, and I can feel the effects of it for few days, but it makes me "feel like a man" in some stupid way. I feel I'm closer to my ancestors when I shoot it.

Today's optics have features that help in the zeroing, range finding, trajectory paths, etc. ZF41 was VERY simple, with masterfully ground lenses (Zeiss is famous for that), and it took a great deal of training and skill to place that "perfect shot".

If you want to see this rifle/scope combo in action, rent "The Enemy at The Gates" and see it against Russian set up.

TKS for your fine post!! I love the German sniper rifle and the Ed Harris character!

Daniel and Eric,

I did see that film not long ago really, beautiful but sad like many war films, thank God at least it had an happy ending!
Still on ZF41 / ZF42 here they are called "sniper scopes", but I think at the time they were only for sharpshooters, as they weren't magnifying enough and almost "mass produced".

Sergio

Eric and Daniel

Still referring to the film "The Enemy at The Gates" Jude Law was using a Mosin Nagant 91/30, never owned one but tried it at the range several years ago.
Fine weapon, but I preferred the K98K, in my opinion the best single action of its time.


Sergio

The first rifle shown by Sergio has a laminate Oak stock as was used by the Germans in the latter years of the war. The second rifle he shows has a Beech stock.

My absolutely favorite "sniper" rifle (actually DMR- designated marksman's rifle) is by far the Yugo M76. In my favorite (and original) 7.92X57 caliber (also known as "8mm Mauser" in the US). They were made (for US market) in .308 also, but I'm a stickler when it comes to "original".

I tried the Moisin-Nagant several times (I don't own one), and for some reason I dislike the 7.62R (don't know why). I also have a FINE #4 Enfield (scoped), and I am not fond of the .303 either (go figure). 8mm Mauser "feels right", I'm good with it to a great distance (scoped or not), and I decided this IS "my" caliber.

I am definitely in the "wrong forum" here, because I prefer ANY rifle over a handgun, ....but I LIKE this forum, and the great people that contribute to it, and I'm ABSOLUTELY in love with my 1918 Erfurt.

You're right, as the first is a Yugo M98/48n practically an ex K98K 124 cm long with all the German marks erased, while the second is a Yugo M48 ( leght cm 108)
Personally I've always loved oack stocks, the first laminated stocks for K98K were produced by Mauser from 1939 and from 1940/41 had cupper steel butt plates; while if I'm not wrong Zastava M48 had teak stocks.

Sergio

If some of you want to go into depth of the Yugoslavian weaponry, you should find a book "Yugoslavian and Serbian Mauser rifles" written by retired JNA Col. Branko Bogdanovic.

Branko is active on several mil surp forums, and participates in discussions. After he retired from the military, he searched archives in Belgrade, and Zastava factory in Kragujevac, and wrote a very accurate book about these rifles.

I never had a chance to read his book, and my knowledge on this subject comes from what I was told in school (in Yugoslavia), and my personal experience with most of the Yugo weaponry in the field. The parts of Branko's book I've seen posted on the Internet, and his information is VERY accurate.

As far as TEAK stocks...........I don't know if any of you remember so called "Mitchell Mausers"? Mitchel is known for "embellishing" with fancy words (tales, half truths, and outright lies) everything they sell. They imported THOUSANDS of nice condition M48s, refurbished them, reblued, etc. and called them "Mitchell Mausers" with teak stocks!!! The teak tale then transferred to later imported weapons like M76, M70 and variants, and thousands of people believe yugo rifles have teak stocks!

They don't. The wood is Yugoslavian Birch, and/or Elm. Both type of woods were used, and covered with BLO and cosmolene, they are indistinguishable from each other.

American company by the name "Ironwood" produces replacement stocks for Yugo weaponry, and they made them out of Teak believing the tale started by Mitchell. Then they analized the wood closely (these people KNOW wood, that's their trade!), and couldn't tell the origin from the composition.

To be honest,.....if you put one stock made from teak by Ironwood, next to Zastava original, you can't tell the difference! If it makes people feel good to believe their stocks are teak,....let it be. Teak is VERY expensive wood, and M48s (and everything else made in Zastava) were mas produced in the Communist country "on the budget". Quality? Yes. Exotic/expensive (which Teak is!)? Definitely no.

After reading you wonderful comments, I did some more digging and found the sniper gold mine site! You can enlarge every rifle~ http://www.militaryfactory.com/image...urrentPic=pic3

I stand corrected. Whatever the wood is it is very dense and totally saturated with cosmoline. When I got the rifle I left the stock out in the Texas sun for several hours to leach out some of the cosmoline. 20 years later the stock still weeps oil when it gets hot at the range....

Daniel

quote " ...If some of you want to go into depth of the Yugoslavian weaponry, you should find a book "Yugoslavian and Serbian Mauser rifles" written by retired JNA Col. Branko Bogdanovic."
unqute

I think I found it: B Bogdanovich "Serbian & Yugoslav Mauser Rifles" North Cape Publshing Inc.

practically the "bible" of the Yugoslav Mausers.


Sergio

This morning after reading your wonderful came upon this article~~http://armedbutnotdangerous.blogspot...avian-m48.html

... yes, but

I still prefer the original K98K ... I still have a weak sport for it...
although it's not rare at all I think they made about 100 million of them, but with a bit of patience in 70/80 years it will become rarer and more expensive.


Sergio

Can we try this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6IDbi3wbRg

Now that you all informed yourselves about the M48 (or M48A), you know how nice these rifles are. K98 is much sought by collectors (ones that collect German weapons exclusively), and clean specimens command pretty high price. M48 went up in price considerably in the last ten years or so, but it's still WAY cheaper than K98.

I purchased mine from a Phoenix PD Sergeant in the condition I mentioned (practically NEW), for $160 back in 2007. Over the years I accumulated a sizable "collection" of the weapons that I was interested in. So in 2007 I decided to give my "collection" some kind of "theme", and since I've spent my childhood in Yugoslavia (already owned several Yugo weapons), I cleaned my safe of some weapons that "didn't fit" into my "theme", and concentrated on Yugo only. Naturally, the M48 was the #1 in the lineup, because it was the first weapon I've ever fired. In the late 90s I was in Bosnia and Croatia, and I used almost all of Yugo armament of that time, "in the field", so I was VERY familiar with all of them.

Some of the weapons I got rid of I will miss for a long time (G3, FAL, Uzi). But now my Yugo lineup consists of M57 pistol, M48, M59/66, M70B1, M70AB1, M72, M76, and M53.

There are still MANY more that "don't fit" into the Yugo theme, but I am emotionally attached to them, and they are staying with me forever.

I was present (in Yugoslavia) when some of these were put in reserves. I was shocked to see how they (Yugo conscripts) dunked the WHOLE rifle into the "tub" filled with warm cosmo. Once the rifle is dunked in (one at the time), it's pulled out, and for a good measure MORE cosmo is poured down the barrel with a ladle. Rifle is then put aside in the stack (stacked like cord wood) in the picture seen in Eric's post, and when the cosmo solidifies, rifles were wrapped in the paper, and crated five per crate.

I would LOVE to lay my hands on one of those nifty crates! They were made of birch, with compartments for all the accessories that came with the rifles (bayonets, slings, oilers, ammo pouches). The crate was plain wood inside, and OD painted on the outside, with white and yellow lettering. Rifles were separated from each other with built in spacers, and spacers had felt lining glued over the wood, where spacers made contact with rifles.

Very neat, secure, and efficient.

The best way to get cosmo out of the wood, is to take the action out of the stock, wrap it in the paper towels, place it in the black garbage bag, and put it on the roof of your house. For DAYS! Open the package daily, and replace the paper towels with clean ones. In a week or two, you'll have a cosmo free stock (depending on the climate, of course).

The rifle was new when I got it. It was a "Mitchell" gun purchased by my father. He never got to shoot it before he passed away.
Even though it had been cleaned by Mitchell I found the bolt so packed with cosmoline the firing pin wouldn't move!

Heh, It sounds like a good plan but I think in the Texas summer the stock might burst into flames if I left it on the roof!

Here in SoCal we get up to 110F, and this method worked for me. For metal parts, .....boiling works great!

As far as "new" when it comes to Mitchell.......it was "refurbished" by Mitchell, and VERY pretty. Not "JNA original", but still a nice weapon. I hope you enjoy it, as much as I enjoy mine.:rockon:

I watched this video you posted, and the guy in it is NOT too familiar withe this system. I'll explain.

The "wing" at the end of the bolt he demonstrates to be at "safety on" position in the VERTICAL orientation. This is INCORRECT!

When the "wing" is on the left, the rifle is ready to fire. When it's fully to the right, the rife is "on safe". The vertical position is used ONLY for dis assembly of the bolt! When this wing is vertical, the bolt is removed from the rifle (magazine is empty!!), and in this position (and this position only), the bolt body can be separated from the bolt "head" by depressing the plunger,visible at the "collar". Once the bolt body is separated, the firing pin is placed into the metal "ring" on the stock (on K98), the wing is forced downward with the thumb (against the spring), and the firing pin can be removed, by turning the connector 90 degrees. On M48, the tip of the firing pin is placed into the nut of the crossbolt, and treated the same way (M48 does not have the metal "ring" imbeded into the stock.

Bottom line,.....the rifle is NOT safe with the wing vertical!! The wing should NEVER (as in never-ever) be in the vertical position if the rifle has a round in the chamber. If dropped it can fire.

Be safe folks. This disassembly procedure was drilled into me in the elementary school in Belgrade, back in 1968.

Allright, all correct, but remember that Hickock45, that you surely know, is an icon for many of us.

:cool:


Sergio