Hello and questions, questions, questions
 

Thanks for having me at LF. Im from South NJ (I swear its a different state) and have collected a few Hungarian handguns and rifles as well as a FN Mauser and many other current handguns and rifles. I have always admired the Luger and want to purchase my first soon.
I am looking for a WWII era matching in shooter condition. Think I can do it between $1500-2000. I know very little about Lugers so im reading what I can find on this sight as well as other internet sources. And at the same time im looking around at every gun shop I come across, asking friends, and even shopping gunbroker. I dont want to pay over market value and I dont want to buy a faked or re-finished.
I like the WWII era because in my mind thats what a Luger is. Is there any reason to choose or not choose guns from that era? Will all era guns function,holdup as well as the other eras? Is there any type or make that tends to function and hold up better than the others? Is there a book that lists enough info for a fist time buyer to take along and help identify as well as authenticate a Luger before dropping cash?
Any suggestions on my search will be appreciated, im pretty thick skinned.

Hi John and welcome to the forum. You should be able to easily pick up a good condition "shooter" Luger for substantially less then then $1500. to $2000., perhaps even in the $700. to $900. range. You can get a good idea of what a reasonable price would be if you log onto some of the major auction houses web sites and click on their "Past Auction" feature where you should be able view the prices realized, always a good starting point. If you prefer the WW11 Lugers Mauser seems to be the best regarded producer. There are lots of good, informative books available on that subject an excellent choice would be Gortz and Sturgess three volume set, "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols", a little pricy but well worth the investment for someone that may be interested in learning about and collecting Lugers. You can also click on the "search' feature at the top of the page and type in "book review" for other ideas on this subject. Good Luck,

Lon

welcome

well, it depends on what you consider a 'shooter' because that usually means, rougher condition, mismatched parts or refinished :)

If you are looking for a nice gun and then turn it into a shooter, thats kind of a shame, but its your gun...

Ed

Collecting Lugers is a bit different from other firearms. The best way to start is by studying them. One of the best available references was recently published, and is available on a DVD as a PDF file. Get in touch with Simpson Ltd in Galesburg, Il and get a copy of the Sturgess and Goertz book on the Borschardt and Luger Automatic Pistol.

If you're mainly going to be interested in Weimar and WW-II era Lugers get a copy of "The Mauser Parabellum" by Hallock and Van der Kant. These Lugers were made from 1934 to 1942. They probably have the best metallurgy and were still being made with rather high precision by Mauser in Oberndorf through the end when they shifted over to the P.38 in 1942.

Reading the books first is what I call "Luger University". Even thought the books are expensive, they will save you time and money in the end. Plus they open up details of the fascinating history of Luger pistols.

Lugers are extensively marked; made up of matched and numbered parts; hand fitted and quite addictive. A collector wants one that is all matching, as close to original factory state as possible. That means no refinishing and minimal wear. Generally no import marking (some exceptions exist, like very rare ones, commercials shipped originally to the USA or Swiss ones).

Most collectors get mismatched or refinished Lugers to shoot. This is because they really can break numbered parts, and you'll lose quite a bit of value if you break an all matching original one. Of course, that just eventually improves the value of the collectible ones that are left.

The rarer they get, the higher the potential for fakery. Stick to military Lugers that are somewhat common at first. Start by dealing with an established collector or dealer that will allow inspection and return if not satisfied. Remember that dealers charge higher prices because they have a business and overhead to support. Expect 30%-35% higher prices when dealing with a dealer. Read here extensively, because some dealers are not to be trusted (even though they have a very nice online presentation and good photos, some are known to deal quite a bit in fakes). The gun auctions and Ebay (for parts) are literally a jungle for the uninitiated. Fakes and overpriced items abound - just like at gun shows.

Welcome to the addiction!

Marc

I think Lonnie, Edward and Marc have already given you some useful advices, I underline that would be essential to study the Luger world first.
To me Lugers breathe history and would be awful to use a collectible as a shooter at the range, still it depends on you and on what you are really looking for: a shooter to gain some initial experience or a nice collectible as some sort of investment...
Well if you were thinking about an investmeny I'd suggest you to look elsewhere, for investments get gold or shares, and for keepsakes buy Lugers. Lugers generally hold their values so one can make trades and sell/upgrade without losing too much money but they will never make any sense as investments.

If you look for a shooter you won't have to spend a fortune, even a mismatched Russian capture 1942 Mauser would do, but have it checked first by a serious gunsmith and remember that old Lugers should never be fired with modern high speed and high power ammunition.
In any case welcome to this Forum, good luck and shoot safe!

Sergio

Thank you for the kind welcome and book information.
I would like to clarify "shooter". I have no intention of using this for 3-gun or even taking it monthly to blast off 100rnds. I do plan however to take it to the range once and a while. And fire a couple mags through her. In my mind its value is in being able to enjoy it and show it off. I have a '42 1911, a '24 1903, a Frommer Stop I treat in the same manner.
Im an engineer/machinist so the big draw is the unique action on the Luger, same goes for the Frommer.
One of the sources recommended was Liberty Collectables.
http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...nd-guns/lugers
They are close enough to go and put my hands on several Lugers at one time and be able to get a better understanding of what to look for. Has anyone dealt with them?

Never heard of "Liberty Collectables". We know the people at Legacy Collectibles and I have only heard good things about them (but have not dealt with them yet).

Also see checkpointcharlies.com and Simpson Ltd online. Both have good reputations.

As to shooting. I have never shot my collectible guns. Period. I do have some Lugers just for shooting. Of course, your choice may be different. It will be yours after you purchase it.

As i mentioned, I share this advice so regularly, and hear push back so consistently that I'm just resigned to the fact that fewer collectible Lugers will end up increasing the value of the ones I own.

If you search around you'll see the truth of the risk of firing them causing breakage.

Believe me, nobody will think better or worse of you because you shoot collectible guns. It's just a personal choice.

Are luger so delicate that they can't handle being used infrequently? I'm sure with the complexity that they are more delicate than a 1911 for example, but seeing as Germany produced them for about 40 years I assumed that they were somewhat robust and reliable. If I manage to find a mixed luger I would likely buy it. At the same time I didn't think that a $1500 handgun was exactly a heirloom.

It isn't that they are delicate but that some of us see the value in their all-matching nature and to break one of the numbered parts is not an irreparable situation. Indeed, there are parts but the loss of numbered parts would bring the value down to that of a shooter (unless I have misread what you are questioning).

I have a beautiful all matching 1913 which I keep in my safe, having never been fired since it got into my possession. But I do have some shooters which I do take out fairly frequently (3-4 times a year).

I echo the comments of the others in that you can get a mismatched quality shooter for $1000 or less. I've just picked up one recently (a 1914 Erfurt, all matching with an older refinish and an aftermarket 8" barrel and the stock lug ground off) for $700 and I found a mismatched WWII Mauser at a local pawn shop here for $749.99 and put that on layaway. so, there are deals to be had and you might check out the sale section on the board here. Welcome, by the way!

Michael

Boogieman,
You ask good questions, but they are without "good" or universal answers.
What you want depends a lot on you and what you like.

You can get an historical luger, that is already mismatched as a shooter- and not worry about
breaking a part.

By the way, I do not believe Lugers are quite as fragile as some here do, but then I've never broken a matching part, lucky? No, just have not had that many till lately.

First two lugers I owned were about 25 years apart, the first one was a well used Erfurt and would not function, I owned it less than a day. Fast forward to a local gun show, I bought a nice looking
Artillery luger, only problem was it had two rear sights! Yes, it was a "built" from parts pistol.
Owned it a month or so, never fired it, sold it to a bigger fool for what I had in it!

My current shooters are two out of only 10 lugers I now own. One is a very nice looking G Date Mauser, with excellent finish and bore- only problem is it is mis matched, the G Date 1934 upper on a 1937 mauser lower, with a repro side plate- I can't hurt it much, and it was a $850 shooter when bought. Second shooter is a .30 cal 1920 commercial, all matching, but nothing special, bought it for the price of a shooter too, so I shoot it. If I break it, I can find a replacement that is matching, replace the broken part, and it will still be worth near the $ I paid for it- so again nothing much to lose.

The other 8, I could shoot; but why take a chance of reducing the value by several hundred $$, and having to find a part too boot?

My next shooter will be an Artillery model, i.e. the Long P 08 with the 8" barrel.

So study books, websites, read all the old posts here, including the WTS section to get an idea of what is out there and the prices. Look at the online sales sites, go to gun shows, local gun shops and pawn shops.

Look and then ask questions BEfore you buy!

and welcome.

Hope this story helps.

My shooters are below:

Lots of good advice in this thread. I am relatively new to Lugers and started by seeking a matching WWII era shooter as well. My experience:

-Knowledge and patience are key. If you are short on either you are at risk to overpay, buy a poorer specimen or both.
-Knowledge sources: books, visit shows, talk to collectors, read the forum(s).
-Matching WWII (Mauser) shooters are a bit of a tricky proposition. These are desirable and therefore tend to cost a bit more than other eras. A matching WWII (Mauser) Luger with good or better everything (bore, finish, grips, function) costs $1,100-$1,500 between collectors, higher if purchased from a dealer. As finish, bore, grip quality declines or parts begin to mis-match, price declines. But there is a range. It takes some combination of work, patience and luck to find good weapons toward the lower end of the range.
-I would counsel get a relatively inexpensive shooter, enjoy it for a few months and go from there. My first Luger was an all-matching WWII Mauser with significant finish loss but an excellent bore. I learned that it makes me very nervous and detracts a bit from enjoying the shooting experience to fire an all-matching gun due to the risk of breakage. I still have the gun and shoot it a little, but have since acquired a mis-matched WWII Mauser in good to very good cosmetic condition that I find more satisfying to shoot. I don't worry about breaking parts and it addresses my personal preference to shoot a nice-looking pistol. My point is, start with an inexpensive shooter and you will learn a lot about both Lugers and what you really want.

Good luck to you in your search.

"Matching" and "shooter" are seldom used in the same sentence in the collecting world.

A good shooter would be an almost all matching late Mauser (from 1939 to 1942) with a good bore.

Lugers are not fragile. They are even quite tough (maybe more than the 1911). But things do break and in a Luger most of those things are numbered.

So you can boil it all down... The Lugers aren't delicate but the owners are. Or the nicer the gun, the more delicate the owner. In fact, some of the owners have more parts replaced than their guns. ;-}

Lugers are not fragile at all, but common sense tells you to avoid using modern
high speed and high power ammunition because some older guns might have become structurally unsound.
Enjoy shooting you Luger but shoot safe.

Sergio

Guys thanks again for all the info. I will likely be bouncing some possible buys off of you in the near future. My search will be for a gun that functions well and looks presentable rather than a matching number gun. I dont think im ready for a "collector luger" at this point. My draw to the Luger is the mechanical and machining aspect and to a lesser degree the history. As for investment purposes, guns are not likely to be the model I use. Real estate and IRA or even gold/silver IMO is the way to go. My search will be or an honest seller of a mismatched Luger. Plenty of sellers want to sell a "Rare" pistol that is actually a mismatched shooter.

A great reference site~~http://www.paul-mauser-archive.com/i...econd_part.htm

An excellant repost~~Mauser At Its Finest~~http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-told-pistols/

I've got one of those "seldom" shooters. It's an all numbers matching '42 (except the mag) that has seen some polishing and re-bluing.

That makes it one of the best possible shooters one can get.

Not sure if I asked this or not. I am under the impresion that the best of the Lugers (as far as function and durability) are those made just prior to and at the beginning of WWII. Would that be Mauser "42 marked Lugers only?

I'm pretty comfortable with the later S/42, 42, and BYF guns myself. They say the metallurgy was at it's peak toward the end.
dju

If I had to pick a Luger to use at the range I think I would choose a 1942 P08, when the metallurgy was supposed to be better and compared to a WWI perhaps the gun should be less used and abused.


Sergio

1936 is a VERY good vintage......quality respected across the board.........

I shoot my all matching 1918 Erfurt. I purchased ALL potentially breakable parts, and fitted them to the gun. Just in case. But honestly,......I'm an old selfish bastard, and I really don't care what happens to my "collection" (or the world in general) after I die!

I put "collection" in parenthesis, because I don't "collect". I just accumulated some weapons that I like, and I shoot them all, whenever I feel like.

I admire all members here that profess to be concerned about their collection been kept "for future generations". I have this one life, and I intend to live/enjoy it to the fullest. As far as I'm concerned, the world can cease to exist after me (as it will for ME!).

I never acquired a weapon that I considered "an investment" (I invest in other things), and the "future value" of anything I own doesn't concern me. Keeping a weapon (a car, a watch, or anything worth considering "collecting") for looking at it, is not my game. I WILL use everything I paid for with my hard earned money, and have a TON of fun doing it.

Just my 2 cents.

Instead I'm a gun collector, not an addict, not that there is a distinction... just sounds better...

jokes apart, probably you've got the right attitude after all

Sergio

Mauser marked S/42; 42 and BYF from 1937 to 1942 any of them would be a good choice.

And I didn't see your post that said pretty much the same thing I did. :o

Unfortunately that attitude has gotten us where we are today. I seriously feel we need to be concerned about the future. And I am an old fart.

+1

Oh, I am concerned about the future, but gun collections should be mostly enjoyed. There will always be some 'preserved' in museums, armory collections, safes, etc. But the preservation of individual's items that concern me more are the aircraft of the wars. They still fly the old B-17s and others, and every so often we loose one and those are REALLY irreplaceable. But I can't really fault those who own them and want to fly them. Because they see history and the future as remembering the sacrifices of the past in real time, which made that - this future possible. I guess that is also true for antique firearms shooters. Sometimes bringing a Luger to the range opens up conversations with others, including the future and the next generation of 'collectors.'

quote "...They still fly the old B-17s and others..."

Some people would be interested also on the most decorated US ships of WWII but come on an old Luger is definitely more easy to preserve!

:-)


Sergio