Visit to Simpsons, Ltd - Import Marking Discussion
 

Last week, I visited Galesburg, Illinois and stopped by Simpsons, Ltd. I met Bob, Carol and several of the people that work there.

Bob said it was OK to film to share a bit of the visit with you on the forum. They were import marking some recently imported pistols, and Bob also let me visit the Luger room.

The machine used for import marking was quite an investment. They are listed online at over $35,000! It creates a very discrete mark in a less visible location.

A warning. The Luger room is a bit overwhelming. There is more stock there than is listed online.

Here's the video:

https://youtu.be/6tixkbwb0Qw

How come a 1911 gets imported in the USA? :confused:

Could be a Koenisgberg (sp) Norwegian 1911A1

You're right it's a Norwegian 1911. But mind the Norwegian is not a A1

Very cool mark, i have been at their table when they have gotten in some rare stuff, so always cool to see where it ends up :)

Never been there, if I go, I'd want to take a couple thousand with me :)

It's actually a bit intoxicating to visit there. Bob was a very gracious host. He has very collectible military things literally everywhere in a fairly large multi-story warehouse.

I did buy something very nice from him.

The pistol in the video was a Koenigsberg Colt Norwegian manufactured 1911 clone.

How come I have never seen a luger with import marking?? Eric

Most military Lugers were brought into the country prior to the requirement that they be marked.

After 1968, they had to be marked. Most Swiss Lugers have an import mark.

How Tragic!! Is it still mandatory?? Do all imported or brought over after 1968 require the hidious tatoo?

I think I found the answer and its not pretty! https://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/g...rification.pdf

Yes - that's it.

Prior to the 2002 change, the marking could be in a hidden place on the frame (under the grips). That is where my earlier M1900 Swiss luger is marked.

After 2002, it had to be on a visible place.

Simpson determined that it was legal to put it on the base of the frame around the magazine well opening. That way, when the magazine is in the gun it covers the import marking.

Marc

Since all our German lugers were imported here sometime, why aren't the vast number marked. Does that mean they were all imported prior to 1968? Do we all fall into some exemption, I hope! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...le-gun-values/

Not all, but most that came here were imported before 1968, either commercially or as war trophy bring backs...

After the Gun Control Act of 1968 (a late result of the Kennedy Assassination accomplished with a mail order gun), importing (and buying) guns got much harder with a lot more rules and restrictions.

Thank You John, I'M sure it affects prices for luger virgins~

In normal situation, value is derived from cost. Although high value guns could come at very low cost occasionally, that's definitely scarce situation on the market. If import mark does bring down the cost a lot, it's not all negative then. But I noticed import marks did not affect many guns imported from Europe and sold on Julia recently. "Import mark did not bring down the cost" from buyer's viewpoint, that's a little bit weird, but who knows, we'll keep observing.

A firearm that originated in the U.S. then for whatever reason was sent to another country and later brought back after 1968 still have to be import marked?

Lon

Leave it to the feds to create more jobs for the Feds~~~

I sent the question Bob Simpson to see what he says!!

I remember something about this from back in the days several years ago when I was baiting the promoters of the mysterious "Carlos" gun collection in Argentina. I think it might make a difference how many are imported in a lot... I await Bob Simpson's reply to Eric!

The answer to the question about re-importing US manufactured firearms is a bit complex.

I believe that it relates to the ownership of the firearm while it was overseas.

If the firearm belonged to the US government while overseas (like the M1 Garand rifles that were loaned by the US government to Greece, for example) they do not have to be import marked.

I recently bought a Smith and Wesson model 10 revolver that had been used by the Victoria Austrialia police. It was traded in to Smith and Wesson for a newer model S&W pistol. Thus, when it re-entered the US, it belonged to S&W. It was not import marked.

If the M1 Garands owned by countries that we sold them to like Korea will have to be import marked if we ever allow re-importation.

The Sturgess collection was import marked as required by Federal law.

I don't think import marking improves the value of firearms. Most collectors of WW-II firearms think it reduces the value of a firearm since it is evidence it wasn't brought in to the USA during or right after the war. Other collectors just consider is evidence of the history of the firearm. Finally some consider it an alteration and flaw that reduces firearm value.

Ultimately this impact is up to the buyer and seller.

Marc

Bob Simpson wrote me ALL firearms entering this country must be marked! I assume it only applies to those imported after to the 1968 act~ I believe they lose their luger virginity! Much like a non natural luger proof mark! Like adding you initials to a valuable work of art!! ~~I like natural non plastic surgery anything! I guess I'm old fashioned!! PS Bob is a heck of a nice guy along with his family!

I own a Benelli B-76 pistol that has neither a US distributor or an import mark on it. When I wrote Benelli about it, they stated it may have been brought in diplomatically or by a US service person. Who knows??
Not that it makes it more valuable, just interesting to me..LOL

Someone might know the former, but no way to know the latter!

Folks on the Japanese forum ask this question about Arisaka rifles all the time. Fortunately the military kept account of how many rifles were collected and then given to GI's as souveniers. Of a total of about 2.5 million, 1/2 were destroyed, and 1/2 souveniered!

I've not seen any thing similar regarding European trophys, but I believe there may be a "million" Lugers floating around too!:confused:

I recently purchased a 1913 Commercial DWM that was in the March 2015 Julia auction that came from the Sturgess collection. Import marked by Simpson Ltd. just on the left lip of the mag well.

An interesting side note: This pistol (s/n 71371) was advertised as a 1906 Commercial in the auction (lot 2315). Somebody messed up.

Bill

If I understand the discussion correctly, Simpson's nice little mag well import mark was determined to be out-of-compliance. Can anybody report authoritatively if that is the case and, if so, what is their current marking practice on Lugers??

--Dwight

I am only guessing. In addition to size and content, the import marking requirements specifies a precise depth of the marking. It looks to me that in order to meet the depth requirement Simpson laser cut a shallow groove in the magazine cutout and then laser engraved the import marks. This made the import marks meet the required depth below the original surface but the marks themselves ended up quite shallow and therefore less noticeable. I think that may have been tiptoeing at the boundary of meeting specifications. I could be all wet bit that is my guess. Whatever the process, bully for Simpson as it preserved the outward appearance of one of the most significant handgun collections ever to be offered to the collecting community.

And the plot thickens! I found an interesting blog on point! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...nd-conspiracy/

They are lucky as they can afford an awesome piece of machinery. If I represented them I would have my staff point out the markings. This way might prevent buyers remorse! A real pain. I'm sure! Bob and his family are a class act. Leave to them to make harder to enforce the rules! This thread is great as we should check well our purchases~I don't care what anyone says I want a virgin unless it is a Cartridge Counter~ Eric

Eric,

Thank you for doing this research. A very informative article.

It will be interesting to see where all of this leads to.

Bill

Man you're picky!! :D

Thank You Bill, I was a Trial Attorney for many years~ Were cartridge counters exempt like test pieces? My 1920 carbine has a hidden 'GERMANY' inside on one of the thongs, others have it outside the body. Am I in compliance?

I was talking to a mutual friend the other day - Jerry Burney. He said you were tenacious! :D

I don't know a thing about Cartridge Counters other than they are expensive!

hiding the import markings is nothing new. I recall purchasing several Walther PPs & PPKs from the old Sacramento Armoury over 30 years ago, and didn[t discover that they were imported marked until I go home to give them a good cleaning, and found the very small markings on the left side of the frame area, surounding the chamber area of the barrel, which was completely covered by the slide, when it was installed. TH

Removing Import Marking
 

In response to Eric's question:

Eric, your Luger came into the country long before the current import regulations were active.

A firearm owner can remove the import markings, but not any added serial number. This can become an issue if the import process assigned a different serial number to the gun than it was originally manufactured with, since removing or altering the serial number would be an ATF issue.

A PDF of the ATF Letter is attached.

Here are the ATF import marking guidelines:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...ation-overview

https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download

Marc,
Where does it say that a Firearm owner may remove the import marking? I read the atf files and didn't see where it says that. Could you highlight the section. Also the attached files just leads back to the post.
Thanks, Tom

Tom
The permission to remove the import mark on the barrel is in the attached pdf file. depending on how your browser works when you click on the attachment link it may open the link in the task bar at the bottom of the screen. If you then click on that window it will open the letter pdf.

A removal scar is I believe much more suspect and less desirable~ Like the removal of an old tattoo!!

Eric, a "removal scar" is a great description. I would consider the import mark part of the gun's personal history. While unmarked guns may demand a premium price, a marked gun would certainly look better than a gun with a removal scar. At least IMHO.

Thank You John! Just another category of luger from which to chose! All Lugers are born perfect and remain so unless we mess them up~~ You can't repair perfection!!!! Eric

The links I posted lead to the ATF site, and to a PDF file of the ATF letter which is posted on this server.

The Import Mark Ltr spells out the ATF position on removing import markings (including the need to retain the serial number).

I'm not advocating removing marks, just sharing what I have learned about them.

If clicking on the links isn't working for you, check out how your browser is configured.

Marc