1920 Carbine, Less Forearm
 

Here is a "puzzelah" has Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers used to say: Could this be a 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm?
This is from my recently acquired collection.
Referencing "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon, and "Luger Variations" by Jones, and trying to find more guidance here on the forum and on Mr. Still's forum, please help with further insight about the attributes of this Luger.
I've had a discussion with Jerry B., and he's seen these photos, and thought perhaps it was a "Long Barreled Luger", but the ramp sight and 3-4 position rear sight have us leaning towards the "1920 Carbine, Less Forearm" as described in Jones' book, on pg. 159. Jones also says this variation is often called a "Parts Carbine".
Numbers match, except for the side plate, which is "91", and the barrel is stamped "11" in the space between the metal of the rear sight on the underside of the barrel.
Barrel length is 11.93", which is within the range listed in Jones.
Thanks again to all who make this forum such a wonderful resource.
I look forward to reading your comments.
(I know is has the chunk out of the grip - I didn't do that!) :crying:

Doesn't that mismatch side plate just jump out at you in the second photo? The lighting really makes the color/tone pop.

I am puzzled by the shot of the underside in the next to last photo. An extra part shows up. That might be the clue as to what it is.
Jack

Sorry, i dont see an extra part. Where do you see it? Use something as a reference point and describe location of extra part from the reference point, say, the trigger guard.
Thank you.
~John

The pistol is out of battery, the barrel is moved off the slide. What you see is the locking lug.

Yes Jerry. I did that to get a clear image of the witness mark, and show that there were no other stamps/marks in that area.
Thank you.

Alphabet Commercial sn 1213m. The barrel has been replaced with what appears to be the barrel from P08 carbine (formerly 1920 carbine) sn 11.

--Dwight

I remember this long one in 'Lugers At Random' long ago!! Eric

Carbine
 

This last picture show a different rear sight than anfngers. I haven't seen a sight like that before and when I viewed the picture showing what appeared to be a lug for a forearm the sight base looked to me like it might be sleeved onto the barrel.

Aldo35

A, I agree that your pistol is not a Factory made Carbine, or it would have the forarm bar soldered to the front of the frame and I doubt the it is a Factory or imported made "long barrel" or it would have an LPO8 type tangent rear sight as shown above. Interesting hi-bred with parts from a couple of lugers. TH

Under The Hood!
 

For comparison~

I've never seen pics or real thing in person but it is interesting that this carbine (and presumably others) use the split rear sight base. Mauser made their rifle rear sights single piece, no split. Also soldered on.

No point to be made here; just interesting. :)

I had noticed Eugen's rear sight base on Ed's carbine was split also, and I had wondered if that was a Eugene-specific modification...

As I understand it, the front tang added to the frame was essential to the functioning of the carbine configuration, in that an extra recoil spring interacted with the tang to help get the massive weight of the barrel back into battery. This, in addition to carbine-specific ammo loaded with a bit of extra oomph to energize a cycle. In the pic posted above from Lugers at Random, someone has drawn in a couple of annotation arrows, each pointing to the now superfluous notched sight on the rear toggle link. This makes me think that the Luger in the pic was a standard configuration pistol with a carbine barrel clomped on. I'm aware that Stoeger re-barreled pistols to similar lengths, without the tang setup. The bottom, rear of the barrel in the book, however, looks like it does not have the slot cut to accommodate the tang, so I think it was one of the rebarreled-to-order guns addressed on the page. How did those manage to function--without the extra spring, etc.?

I found this in Jones variations~
 

1959

Eric must have added those marks himself, as my LAR book does not have them.

Eric's Luger carbine has both barrel and toggle rear sights. :)

Yes a few years back there was some discussion regarding my rear notch. I downloaded an article on the carbines. This was the Weimer period and DWM put together as many as the could using left over parts. The gun is now 100% matching including the beautiful stock. It has all the proof inspections and the 'Germany' marking. A perfect carbine at that time utilizing parts that survived! Eric

The Article and pertinent info!!http://www.landofborchardt.com/lugerads.html

Here is a 1920 Carbine for sale with parts http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=24104

Reference was made to "Ed's Carbine".Did I miss something regarding that item?
Jack

I take that to mean that Ed still has no carbine?
Jack

I guess not. The thread has calmed down a bit since last year. I used to notice new posts added almost daily, but it was frustrating because I'd think, "Great, Ed got his carbine!" and it would always not be the case.

Didn't the carbines all have a grip safety? Is the left grip cut to take a safety? Anyway, a nice long barreled Luger.

Dave great question! The 1920 model used parts fom the earlier grip lugers, pre 1908!. During the years after the first world war they often were faced by shortages and restrictions. Mine has an unusual rear sight and a grip like its 1902 cousin. Every luger has its' own history and story~~ Eric

There is a 1920 Luger Carbine for sale and has an exposed "MADE IN GERMANY' stamped in plain view near the side plate. My carbine has its "GERMANY' import hidden under the barrel and has to be taken apart to even find it! I hadn't even noticed it for years! Was the placement dictated by regulation or law as it doesn't seem uniform~Eric

Eric, if I'm not mistaken, it's up to the importer where and how lightly to stamp them. There are guidelines, I think, dictating font size and perhaps more.

Dave I have to admit, I don't know. My 1902 chubby has 'GERMANY'????? There has to be some law somewhere! Research time!!

My Fault. Mine are not import marks. Mearly the county of origin. The importer marks are deadly as to value. You don't want his name on your gun!! I just posted this article in my section. Tks As Always!!

Found it http://rockislandauction.blogspot.co...m_medium=email tks

i think export stamp and importer stamping is being mixed up

Kenyon & Jones references
 

Photos and information in two well known Luger references, (Kenyon and Jones), both show the 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm, as posted by Eric. Also posted by Eric are the threads from landofborchardt.com, with this quote: "The Luger carbine reappeared in the 1920's, but as a new model parts gun, assembled by DWM/BKIW from WW1 and other commercial surplus Luger parts, being offered in a wide variety of configurations, mostly with mismatched serial numbers, being advertised in many 1920 American sales catalogs."

With respect, and understanding that this thread got highjacked talking about Ed's carbine, could the focus return to the original thread?
There is a lot of info in the above quote, and it all may apply to the topic of the original thread:
"reappeared in the 1920's"
"new model parts gun"
"assembled from...WW1 and other commercial surplus luger parts"
"wide variety of configurations"
"mostly mismatched serial numbers"

Books can and do have errors. Here are two authors, still being referenced by Luger collectors, both with correlating evidence to the existence of a 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm.
I have not fired mine to know if it functions properly without the forearm bar soldered to the front of the frame, but I think it will based on info in the Jones book, (see below). I have compared its condition and witness mark with several other Lugers that are in my collection, and feel that the witness mark is authentic and correct, and I'm not convinced that the barrel was replaced.
Referring to "Luger Variations", by Jones, on pg 30 there is a table showing all the different spring criteria. This chart was posted by Sheepherder a couple days ago for GT who is working on mainsprings. This table makes reference to the differences between springs in carbines with and without forearms. The carbine (w/ no forearm), has a spring with 51-54 pounds required for complete compression. This value is in line with the poundage of all other listed lugers, except the carbine with forearm, which is roughly half, at 23 pounds. At the bottom of the table is the following note, that explains this: "Note: The 1920 Carbine (with forearm) has an auxiliary recoil spring in the wooden forearm, and the two springs combined have the correct poundage (51)."
I will continue to search the forum for info about carbines without forearms, and welcome those references if someone has them.
If someone else has one these, please let me know.
I have looked at page 98 (P08 Carbine) of the commercial database, and there is one listed, S/N3 as "no forend", but it has an artillery style barrel and sight. Also on the carbine list is S/N 93, "no forestock".
There is also S/N 1896k, carbine style barrel, no forend. S/N 8939t has 11 3/4" barrel and ramp sight.

Should there be newer, published in a reference book information regarding this variation, the "1920 Carbine, Less Forearm", I would like to learn of it.
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, and to all of us who continue to study and learn about these fascinating firearms.

John, Very well done! You have pretty much covered this subject. Not much is put together on civilian guns..No books I know of. Charles Whittaker at the Land of Borchardt is a very fine Gentleman and very knowledgeable. Good job! The only other variations I know of might be the Pacific Arms guns. I actually owned a Pacific Arms Carbine with a forearm once years ago..They likely made or put together long barreled guns with and without forearms.

Another 1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock
 

I was traveling when this thread was posted, so I was unable to put in my 2 cents. For what it is worth here is my observation and opinion.

Both the Jones and Kenyon reference books have been around for a very long time. Their information is useful and has been used and accepted be more contemporary authors. The 1920ish Luger carbine without a fore stock has been referenced since a time when there were fewer collectors and values that did not encourage counterfeiting.

One of the reasons for the fore stock spring assist on the 1902 carbines was the weaker leaf main spring. Due to the reciprocating mass of the 1902 carbine barrel and toggle top assembly the leaf main spring did not provide enough force for complete closure. The fore stock spring assist provided the additional force for complete battery closure. The later coil main spring provided enough force for complete battery.

What I am presenting here is a Model 1923ish Commercial American Eagle Carbine without a fore stock. The frame is marked Safe and the extractor is marked Loaded. The 11 3/4" Barrel with an adjustable rear sight is 7.65mm Parabellum. As stated above there is no Fore Stock. The serial number is 91273. Small parts have matching numbers. Proof marks are C/N. Country of origin, Germany, is marked in several places.

1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock
 

1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock

1920 Carbine with out fore stock
 

1920 Carbine with out fore stock

Perfect and Beautiful!!!! Nice Score!!! etc. Each of them have story resurrecting in the turbulant Weimer era~How many were assembled is anyone guess! Mine #3231t Go figure!

I don't own an 02 for comparison~ What Differences are the between the 2 and are part interchangeable if any as pats 'what parts' have been used? Eric

Hi Dick,
According to Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, S#91237 was made in 1921. It is classified as a '20DWM Commercial'. It falls into the Stoeger 2000 gun 'Safe and Loaded' contract. Approximately #89700 to #91700.

It must have been a special order to have a factory numbered barrel (not added by Stoeger in the US, as most are).

Super nice and rare, Safe and Loaded American Eagle long barrel with stock.
Thank you for showing it.