Getting these to funtion
 

First I gotta say the amount of information here is amazing and thanks. I am trying to get a couple of guns to function and hope you can help. One is a 1929 DWM police gun, a 4" P0-8 the second is a 1917 LP- 08, both all matched, good shape both of them. The magazines are brand new mec gars. I was told a medium slow powder is best for these so I using 5.5 4756 with a 124 grain round nose hardcast bullet - brand Hunter's Supply seated to 1.173 oal. They function well most of the time, but I get an intermittent failure to feed where the loaded round ends up with the bullet ending up missing the chamber and pointing in the direction of the ejection port. I have Goetz and Sturgess' book ( another treasure) and according to them this jam is an indication that the toggle and breechblock are not travelling back all the way rearward and creating the failure to feed with the loaded round pointed in the direction of the ejection port. The holdopen works about 80% of the time and the jam as described is about 10 -20% of the time. I am tempted to load a bit hotter, but my Lyman manual says 5.5 of 4756 is the max for this bullet weight and I hate to go hotter with guns of this age. They shoot so well that I'll love to get them to work for the combat matches we have. any ideas would be much appreciated- regards MC

PS Don't think I am limpwristing them

Put a stock on your LP 08 and see if the problem is still there. It's odd that both pistols have the same problem.

Try lubrication on the toggle slides and pins. They should work smoothly, grim and dirt over time gums them up. Do a good cleaning. Also the spring and recoil lever need to work freely. The pistol seeks a careful balance between these moving parts, the power of the load in the cartridge, and the firm grip - not a limp wrist. Then it recoils enough to cycle but not so much that it hits the toggle stop too hard, as it has no buffer like most modern automatic designs.

Lugers can be tricky. I was shooting with Jerry and no matter what we did, we could not get a long barrel shooter to click and shoot. I finally gave up, even a different sideplate made no difference.

The first thing that I would suggest is that you get some WWB 115-124gr FMJ or PMC 115-124 FMJ ammo and try that. If these Lugers function correctly on factory ammo, then your handloads are the problem. If not, then I would consider changing out some springs, etc. I am assuming that these Lugers are clean everywhere, and well lubed.

I am not familiar with that specific powder in my handloading. I do find that a medium burner works best for me and my Lugers. Do you by chance have any Unique powder? I have had good results with it, BUT, I would start with factory ammo first. If you have problems with good factory ammo, then I would look at the Lugers.

Hi,

Here we go.

Please read my Sticky, in this section, on How to Determine Proper OAL for a new bullet type you are reloading.

I've visited Hunter's site and judging from the bullet they are selling, this could be your problem. Lead round nose bullets of this design often catch on the magazine release, on the inside of the magazine, while climbing up the magazine wall. This split second delay is just enough to cause the malfunction. For more sure of a function, I'd get the pistol functioning properly on FMJ bullets first; then I'd moved to lead.

By the way "they" say a 9mm won't shoot lead accurately. Ha!!!! For perfect function, both Lyman and RCBS make excellent truncated cone moulds for the 9mm. They are both around 120 grain moulds, depending upon the type of lead you are using. At 29mm OAL, these are accurate bullets, particularly the RCBS configuration!!!

SR 4756 is an outstanding powder for the 9mm Luger cartridge, giving both excellent accuracy and power, but, unfortunately, it has been discontinued. The best powder on the market, right now, for 9mm Luger FMJ shooting, for both power and accuracy, is Power Pistol.

Your 5.5 grain load is my personal accuracy load for a 124 grain FMJ bullet with SR 4756. How accurate? Eight in the X ring at 25 yards, pistol held over a sand bag. For lead bullets, it's AA5 at just about the same load. How accurate? Eight in the X ring at 25 yards!

Drop your load down to about 5.0 grains and work up 1/10 of a grain at a time until your hold-open works every time. Also, check for the most accurate group in this range. If your hold-open won't work in this range, there may be a problem with your hold-open spring, the hold-open itself or your magazines.

With any of the above loads, your pistol is firing full power loads, not under powered ones, so we can eliminate that theory. The jam you are describing can occur with either an underpowered load or an overpowered one. This often causes confusion for inexperienced Lugersmiths.

Are your lead bullets' noses jamming themselves into the extracter groove? If so, either your OAL is wrong or your bullets' are not compatible with Luger feeding.


The best two powders for the LP-08 are 3N38 and Blue Dot. How accurate? Three touching at 25 yards, consistently.

I hope this helps!


Sieger

THANK YOU[ I'm gonna try these things and I'll let you know what happens

Handloading issues
 

I think rhuff and Sieger have given you excellent advice. I can only add that I wouldn't use "maximum" charges of any powder in Lugers (too old and delicate); and since I think you said both pistols have matching numbered parts, you don't want to break any. Bill

I should also tell you that the jam doesn't catch the bullet in the extractor groove. The loaded round ends up with the bullet pointed almost straight up in the direction of the ejection port.

F, Are you sure you have a LUGER, since these have no "ejection port"? TH

Mea Culpa- I think I know what they look like, but the open area where the empty case gets tossed out of, which is directly over the magazine, and where one can see the top of the breechblock when the toggle is closed- wouldn't that qualify as an ejection port? if it is not, please tell me the correct term

:confused:"The first thing that I would suggest is that you get some WWB 115-124gr FMJ or PMC 115-124 FMJ ammo and try that. If these Lugers function correctly on factory ammo, then your handloads are the problem. If not, then I would consider changing out some springs, etc. I am assuming that these Lugers are clean everywhere, and well lubed.
I am not familiar with that specific powder in my handloading. I do find that a medium burner works best for me and my Lugers. Do you by chance have any Unique powder? I have had good results with it, BUT, I would start with factory ammo first. If you have problems with good factory ammo, then I would look at the Lugers."

I totally agree with "rhuff", have you cleaned properly, and lubed your guns?
How is it possible that both of them have the same problem?

Anytime this problem exists I suspect the magazine lips. "The first thing that I would suggest is that you get some WWB 115-124gr FMJ or PMC 115-124 FMJ ammo and try that. Yes..good advice to start with a baseline.

Will do

Jerry,

The OP stated that he is using brand new Mec-Gar mags in each Luger.....at least that is how I read it. I think he just needs to find a baseline and then go from there. Once one throws in a bunch of variables, mass confusion takes over.....at least it does at my house.

Hi,

Would we call this a "smoke stack" jam? This is when the cartridge has missed the loading ramp altogether, and is jammed between the barrel and toggle, aiming almost straightly upwardly.

I had one brand of 124 grain semi-wad-cutters do this, kind of. Actually, the cartridges missed the ramp altogether and flew forward, out of the pistol! It was actually quite funny, but obviously a bit dangerous!!! Other brands of lead semi-wad-cutters feed perfectly and are quite accurate.

Again, if you can find a truncated cone mould (if you roll your own) this would be preferred. The RCBS mould will give you the best accuracy and perfect function. When I developed a target load for this bullet, quite by accident I might add, it was astonishingly accurate!!!

If you want all of my accuracy loads, do a search under my name and you will find them. My decades of developmental work should save you some real time.

Again, my best advise is to tune-up your Luger, first, with FMJ bullets, as this will eliminate some variables always inherent with lead bullets.

Also, please feel free to PM me along the way if necessary. Frankly, I'd really like to see you compete against newer pistols with a well tuned and operating Luger.

Good Shooting!!!


Sieger

Anytime this problem exists I suspect the magazine lips. This was a generalized statement..I know he said he was using Mecgars..But still I suspect the magazine lips Anytime this problem exists. I love Mecgar mags..for shooting but are they new? Used? Beat up or been monkeyed with? A stovepipe is indicative of the mag releasing the cartridge prematurely. Could be the cartridge has been re sized incorrectly too. That's why it's important to go to factory rounds to see if the problem is still there. Lots of variables for sure. I spend a lot of time with a dial caliper..

FYI, I've been using the Parabellum cast lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Co., but recently had to switch to their 125 gr. Cone 9 for use in another, new, gun, the Walther PPQ. I took them to the range yesterday along with my 1936 Luger, and they functioned flawlessly.
4.9 gr. Unique, WSP primers.
Check out the Missouri Bullet Co. website. They use flat rate boxes so postage is reasonable (but the mail man will hate you...)
dju

Hi,

You have got a winner there!

This is an updated H&G #7 mould.

Feed and function should be perfect around 1.173 inches of OAL.

This is a very accurate bullet and I suggest it highly!

Again, AA#5 powder is the best I have worked with with lead bullets.


Sieger

Hi,

I haven't seen any of the newer Mec-Gar Luger mags, but GT did tell us that they had been redesigned.

In my collection of quite a few newer Luger mags, the length of the lips of the various magazines do vary quite a bit.

Obviously, the longer the lips, the more guidance the cartridge has while feeding.

If Mec-Gar shortened the length of the lips on its newer mags, this very well could be a problem.

Can anyone in our group compare these two magazines for lip length?

Thanks!


Sieger

When you are right you are right. I put 50 rounds of factory federal 115 fmj ( all I could get) through this 1917 LP 08 and she was 100%- so its gotta the ammo. Will try fmj reloads and go from there

Feeding issues
 

Great news, and thanks for letting us know! :) Bill

So glad to hear this. Now you have a baseline to work against. You now know that this Luger will function with RNFMJ, so your handloading can proceed from there as to which bullet profiles, bullet materials, OALs, etc. you want to try. This is the challenging, and fun part of handloading......with a real feeling of self accomplishment once you have your loads shooting 100% reliably, and accurately. Keep us informed, and congrats!!:cheers:

All the above, particularly magazine issues, and:
My personal opinion: try a SWC or the long conical nose bullets like RCBS 09-115-RN. COL needs to be fiddled with. You are obviously quite close--try some a bit longer and some at reduced COLs until you get perfect function.
+1 for Power Pistol, but you have to use what you have.
I have had a P-08 not only eject the empty case, but also eject the next round. Surprise seeing two cases flying out of the gun. Magazine and COL issues.

I have loaded up some 115 SWC hollow points with a near max load of 4756- I still have a few pounds. Since she is 100 5 with factory it's gotta be me who made the ammo. We will see. For oal I used some orig . German WW2 ammo. The oal is 1. 175

I have a very nice reblued 1906 American Eagle in 7.65 that is so accurate it is scary. Shoots like my M 52 S & W at 25 yards. The function is perfect except sometimes the toggle doesn't close just short of battery. This might happen say 5-10 times out of 50 I put a new mainspring in. Any ideas? regards Michael

not closing all the way....
 

Hi Michael, I have found that the slightest drag on the fit between the receiver rails and the frame rail relief, will cause it not to close consistently... It usually has to be smooth as glass thru the length of recoil, thru return to battery... super fine lapping will cure it up.... :jumper:..... til....lat'r......GT:cheers:

One thing that I always consider on the 7.65Para(30 luger) is the shoulder on the brass. Be sure that your sizing die is fully down and that it is setting the shoulder back far enough. I was having a problem with this, and removed .015-.020in. off of the base of the sizing die(via lathe) to remedy the problem. Compare your handloads to factory new 7.65 ammo as to where they sit in the chamber(with the toggle train removed). Hold the barrel vertical and drop the ammo into the chamber. Just a thought.

Gents thank you I will try this tonight. The gun is unbelievable. I shot a 46 out of 50 the other day slow fire on the std 25 yard American target.

they really put them together then

I tried taking apart the gun and using the chamber for a gauge to make sure the reloaded ammo was not hanging up due to improper resizing. this was not evident. I think the comment about lapping being needed is the answer. The gun was reblued a long time ago ( a nice job) but I think there is bluing on the bearing surfaces of the breechblock on the sides where it slides back and forth on the inner rails of the receiver fork. I think also there is blue on the inner bearing surfaces of the receiver fork as well ( I hope my terms are correct, or at least descriptive) Judging from the 3 other originals I have, I see these surfaces were left in the white. My question is what compound would I use ( and how) to get the bluing out of those bearing surfaces? thanks MC