Shooting My John Martz Restoration In An IDPA Match
 

Once a year I like to shoot my John Martz-restored 1938 Mauser P.08 in an International Defensive Pistol Association match, which in this case was a 7 stage match, often in steady rain.

Briefly, as I've mentioned this on the forum before, and don't want to be too repetitive, my Luger was a Soviet capture piece, discovered by the Ukrainian government after the Ukraine achieved their independence in the 1990s. One of some 1400 select pieces imported in the country, mine was dip-reblued, and had a dent in the left receiver (a romantic would say "battle damage;" as a former troop leader and field grade Army officer, I say that it's more likely "PFC with a crowbar"). The grips were authentic, but clearly mismatched to the gun, and very wear-worn; additionally the left grip had a chip in the vicinity of the safety lever. All other parts, however, matched, and the gun overall was in pretty decent condition-certainly worthy of the restoration I had in mind, and for being used as a shooter.

Contacting John Martz, we decided to have fun with the gun. I wanted it to be thoroughly restored, mechanically checked and refurbished, and provided a pristine finish. My intention was to use it in steel plate matches from time to time, and as a "barbecue gun." John was a pleasure to work with, and, as many of you know, a superb craftsman-he is much missed. Basically, aside from the mechanical restoration, the gun was deep rust reblued by Charles Danner in Tennessee, including nitre blueing and strawing of appropriate parts. Although a 1938 gun, when overall salt blueing was the finish norm, this was to be a fun, usable presentation piece, not one that would be mis-interpreted as a counterfeit, hence the choice of finish.

After blueing, it went to John's friend George Sarkissian, who hand-crafted a magnificent set of 1899 Borchardt-Luger transition grips, checkered with a panel border, out of English Presentation grade walnut. John then performed a final action job, and provided and tuned several FXO magazines in addition to tuning and/or discarding several of the magazines that I possessed and had provided to him for evaluation.

The gun, as are most Lugers, is exceptionally accurate, and is a joy to shoot, and compete with. It's superb balance makes strong-handed firing exceptionally easy when required. I had a great time using it in the match, and gave several friends the opportunity to handle and fire it apres match.

The gun performed flawlessly, often in steady rain, where I used a Tactical Tailor cordura nylon outside the waistband holster and their dual magazine pouch, which worked quite well. (and not to worry-immediately after the match, the Luger was field-stripped, cleaned and lubricated). Several times the toggle hold-open failed to actuate, but I suspect that that may have been more of a magazine issue inherent to a specific magazine that I'll have to chase down-it certainly wasn't a show-stopper.

And yes, here are some obligatory self-serving images:

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/DSCN3184.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/DSCN3190.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/DSCN3187.jpg

Best, Jon

Looks and sounds like an excellent way to make a Luger you can enjoy shooting, and to look at. A shootable show gun...

That's exactly it, Johnny. And despite the tiny sights/cramped sight picture and the rather precise angle of magazine insertion needed on magazine reloads, the venerable P.08 is more than passingly effective still as a defensive pistol, based on my IDPA use of mine. And it's a great homage to the late John Martz-John was quite pleased to hear of my match exploits with his magnificent work-I'm glad that I was able to share them with him before he passed away.

Interestingly, I've also found that the Type IV FXO extruded magazines will also nicely position modern hollow point ammunition for effective chambering, at least with Winchester Silvertips (but I somewhat doubt that this revelation will result in an onslaught of P.08 use as a personal defensive weapon, even by lugerforum afficianados...). Another nice advantage of the Type IV FXOs is that they're quite sturdy, holding up nicely to the rigors of rapid insertions and ejections onto the ground in IDPA match use (as well as in "real life," I'd assume).

While I won't overuse mine, there's a nice amount of pleasure to be derived from actually using a classic P.08 somewhat as it was intended.

Best, Jon

do you use plastic grips in such rain?

beauty of a gun. you are lucky.

No, Ben, I use the Sarkissian ones-they're wiped down with Weapon Shield for protection-I do remove any rings before shooting to protect the grips and receiver from any marring, though.

Thanks for your appreciative comments.

Best, Jon

Jon,
thanks for sharing ideas and the posted pictures
very nice luger !!!

would you have any current contact information for ?
George Sarkissan
or
Charles Danner

thanks
Bill

That's a beautiful gun. Like the grips too - Luger grips tend to be kinda boring, the border spiffs them up a bit!

danner :

http://dannergunsmithing.com/index.html

cannot find a link to the wood-guy, but 1 or 2 members do wood too.

Ben M,
thanks for the link !
Bill

In one of my later conversations with him, John Martz told me that George Sarkissian's interests had apparently drifted away from his magnificent grip and stock crafting. It was very frustrating for John, as that'd worked hand-in-glove for years, and George's work really complimented John's creations and vision.

Nill Grips makes quality Luger grips, but my personal exposure to them is limited to their catalog and website-perhaps others on the site here can vouch for their quality, fit and finish.

Best, Jon

Custom Luger Grips ?
 

.Hey Guys...I have a Beautiful 1916 DWM "shooter" that I want to upgrade a bit....and would like to get a pair of the Grips with smooth border as shown in photo #3......and haven't been able to obtain a site or name of someone that does them........my foggy memory seems to recall a Forum Member that does make the grips.......can anyone help me with this...?..I appreciate you taking the time to answer..........Danke...Hans Fischer

Hugh Clark, a member of this forum, is a master at grip work and can make beautiful bordered grips. I am not sure of his email address is but I think it is hhclark@wildblue.net
Give it a try

Not to hijack the thread or take anything away from one of our members, but I have a pair of bordered grips that were made by Hugh Clark, if you're interested. PM me off list if so, so we don't hijack the thread.)

Very nice looking pistol!!!

But I think you're wrong as it NEVER rains here in western Washington!!!!!!! :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Very nice, thanks for sharing.
Steve

Jon,
Thank you for your topic on your praised Luger.
As a Martz restoration it is well above the common "shooter" category.
Your assessment that it is still a valuable combat handgun even today it is something to cheer about. :cheers:
All the best,
Douglas

Thanks for your kind comments, Douglas. John Martz provided two things of immense value to me with this project: 1) An eminently functional and beautifully shootable restoration, and 2) A cosmetically magnificent presentation piece that's usable, without having to worry excessively about detracting from its intrinsic value.

The action job that he did yielded a simply superb triggerpull. A friend of mine who's a bit of a connoisseur of triggerpulls on competitive pistols (and usually competes in both USPSA and IDPA with some of CZ's efforts) was amazed at how good the trigger is-regardless of what it is, or its age.

Best, Jon

Very nice! Good to see one being used, and cared for. I had my 1910 restored, but haven't shot it since. Afraid to...Parts you know.

I understand your apprehension-in shooting mine, over time, I (or John) have had to replace the take-down lever's L-shaped spring, and the toggle hold-open lever has had the original component massaged, and finally replaced.

While hardly an expert, in terms of durability for shooting purposes, I place Lugers in three categories:

1. Too delicate (and valuable) to be shot, and presumably with significantly limited parts availability: Flat extractor/leaf recoil spring Lugers;
2. Shootable, but probably not too heavily (and only after a qualified gunsmith's review), due to earlier metallurgy: Pre-Mauser production Lugers
3. Most shootable, (after a qualified gunsmith's review): Mauser and post-Mauser production pieces, due to increased metallurgical qualities providing increased durability.

Overall, I personally consider Lugers as a genre to be exceptionally shootable, albeit with pretty minuscule sights. Basically, they're also exceptionally durable. While they have a reputation for being finicky in the field, I suspect that this is primarily due to two factors:
1. Inappropriate ammunition/magazines/springing (commonly encountered issues seem to center around when using contemporary commercial ammunition);
2. A historically-derived reputation of the susceptibility of the exposed sear mechanism on the left side of the pistol being jammed by foreign material in combat use.

Regarding #1, Lugers, like 1911s, tend to operate on the edge of mechanical acceptability-there's not a huge tolerance for error in their mechanical operations. Ammunition, recoil springs, and magazine springs need to be evaluated and tuned, especially if there's deviations from the German military specification cartridges-and that covers powders, characteristics, and bullet shape/weight/composition. John Martz specifically has recommended to me (and others) that Winchester ammunition be used-I believe that his concern was primarily with the quality and characteristics inherent to Winchester's primers that made them a preferential choice. I've recently successfully used Federal's new aluminum-cased 115gr Champion ball (sold in Walmart), but conversely had significant issues with Federal Eagle 147 gr ball (good ammunition, but the the Luger and Eagle 147gr bullets were just not a happy/compatible match).

Regarding #2, I'm strongly of a mind that the overly-protective German issue holsters were a huge causal factor, in that they were so slow and cumbersome to draw the pistol from (Actions required: 1: Unbuckle flap strap; 2: Open flap; 3: Yank down on lower suspension strap to raise pistol to a graspable position in the holster; and (finally) 4: Draw holster; 5: Off-Safe; 6: Actually fire...This process was so slow and convoluted (especially unbuckling the flap strap), that if combat usage was actually anticipated, there are ample period combat photographs demonstrating that soldiers removed the pistol from the holster in advance, and simply carried it stuffed behind their sturdy leather duty belts-rendering it accessible, but with the sear mechanism highly exposed, especially if the soldier had to low-crawl on the battlefield, where the exposed pistol acted as an earth-scraper...While undeniably well-made and highly protective, the German Luger and P.38 holsters were arguably some of the most tactically inaccessible/useless holsters fielded, in my opinion.

Best, Jon

Interesting and impressive that you shoot this gun in competition. I often wondered why Lugers weren't utilized more for competitive shooting but heard it was because of the trigger. I'm not a gunsmith, but supposedly, the design of the Luger trigger system does not allow it to be modified much (if at all) to adjust the release point or smoothen the pull.

No, the Luger trigger can be adjusted just fine. I believe it's not used more often because of their collector/hard to replace broken numbered parts status.


PS I use a Luger in competitions too.

Hmm...instead of using a vintage Luger and worrying about breaking parts, I would think competitive shooters would opt for one of the newer postwar Stoeger/American Eagle versions.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool that people competitively shoot with prewar and WWII P08's, but it would seem more logical to use one of the new/improved pistols with better metallurgy, especially if the triggers can be modified.

One other reason Lugers aren't used more often is the sights of a bygone era standard.

The new Stoeger Lugers being in stainless steel only make things harder. And they have a bad rep, deserved or not, of not being up to standard to the originals.

Also it's harder to adjust the trigger mecanism with stainless components.

Ahh....I guess I didn't realize the new Lugers were stainless. And +1 concerning the sights.

Jonathan

I've always wanted to use one of my Lugers in a IDPA match, at least once, but at the range where I usually go I' m sure they wouldn't stop laughing! :-)

Until you sweep the match with your trusty P08!!

I just commissioned Tactical Tailor in Lakewood, WA to produce a custom flap holster/dual magazine pouch/modular belt rig primarily for my IDPA forays with my Luger. I've done business with them for some time for other holsters and tactical gear that they produce, and been very favorably impressed-both with their basic products/product quality and their willingness to reasonably customize. I'll share some images once it's completed. I had a great time sitting down with Tactical Tailor's custom designer and collectively working through what we both think will be a viable, slightly modernized, yet somewhat "period" set-up. I've chosen to continue with the post-war flecktarn camouflage pattern....

He also provided a fabric protective patch (for the coyote brown cordura holster pictured in the images at the beginning of this thread) that covers the back surface of the metal gripper of the safety strap's snap, which I had removed to preclude finish scratching Charles Danner's superb rust blueing finish. I can now have a higher degree of retentiveness with that holster should I choose to use the safety strap with it (such as when carrying in the field where the holstered gun might be subject to jouncing around, should I ever choose to do so).

I agree with kurusu's comments vis-a-vis the Stoegar/Mitchell AIMCO stainess steel Luger reproductions. They do not enjoy a stellar reputation for operability, and as I recall they require their own specific magazines-if that's correct, I would assume that they're far harder to get than vintage "true" Luger magazines or modern MecGar Luger magazines, due to the limited production of the stainless steel Lugers. Back in the day, Gun Tests magazine concurrently tested one of the AIMCO-produced Lugers against a Mauser-produced and a DWM-produced Lugers, and it did not fare well...

Best, Jon