Portuguese M2 question
 

I've seen several mentions of a contract of approximatly 5000 pistols.

As far as I know the contract was signed for 3500 pistols only.

I would like feedback of any known M2 pistols with serial # over 3500.

Mario

I think the first Portugese purchase was at the end of 1903, (about 100 test guns) but the first real official delivery was dated in mid 1910 of about 5K "New Model" pistols 12 cm long barrel 7,65 Para gauge with "Seguranca" and "Caregada" inscripions under the safety and on the extractor.
my2 cents

Sergio

M2s don't have "seguranca" only the bare metal contour of the safety lever. They only have the "carregada" inscription.

It's the 1934 GNR pistols that have both "carregada" and "seguranca".

A great discussion fellows... if you could post a published reference as the source of your thinking that would be helpful...

The problem is my source is in portuguese.

http://www.portugalweb.net/historia/...bellum.asp.htm

... the 5000 pistols bought in 1910 were called " Pistolas Luger.Parabellum do Exércite Portugues Mo. 909"
The year after the Portuguese Navy ordered another 1000 Lugers cal 9 Parabellum wih a cm 10 long barrel.

In the October 1910 the king was exiliated, but only 800 of the so called "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da Marinha Portuguesa Mo910" had been delivered.
Since the contract had already been fully paid by the Portuguese, the remaining 200 were delivered sometime later but DWM ha to modify the mark on the chamber with an anchor with RP (Republica Portuguesa) and the goverment property stamps subsituted with the monogram "MP" (Marinha Portuguesa)

Some years later in 1935 Portugal ordered about 600 Luger pistols to MAUSER cal 7,65 for their Guardia Nacional Republicana. I've said "about" since different sources of information seem to give different figures. Anyway the name of these pistols was "Pistola Luger-Parabellum da GNR Mo. 935"
From September 1935 until October 1941 Portugal placed other orders to MAUSER. Probably the Portuguese Army wanted to substiute their old Savage and Nagant guns with the more modern P.08.
In the course of 1942 MAUSER delivered to Portugal some of the Lugers that the Heereswaffenamt had not used any more since the new "star" of those times was the new WALTHER "Heeres Pistole P.38"
To close this post these last 5000 Lugers were marked "byf" "42" Waffenamt "WaA135", some other (715 of them) had the "Mauser banner"

Sergio

If you use the BING translator you can translate the website, including subsequent pages into English:

Try clicking on this URL and see if it shows up in English... Good story and accompanying photographs!

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/b...bellum.asp.htm

Hi Mario,
The M2 in my avatar is S#3803.

Thank you Mike.

Do you have another with the serial number under 3500 to make a comparison between them?

To tell you the truth, it is the first time I see the mention that the Portuguese contract counted for only 3,500 guns - the 5,000 number is mentioned by every major author. However, it doen't mean they they are correct...
Question is where the 3,500 guns purchase data came from?
Saudações,
Douglas

Olá Douglas

There's a link in my third post on this thread.

I've also seen the +-5000 figure everywhere until I stumbled on this article.

That's why I'm trying to figure out how many are around with serial numbers over the 3500 mark. And also what will be the highest serial number.

So far # 3803.

I've only got this one, although I usually pay attention to S#'s of others I see at shows are on the net in hopes of finding consecutive #'s. #3803 is still the highest number I've seen so far and I haven't seen another that was close.

I just found this old thread you might find interesting...
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...highlight=3803

Some old Portuguese Luger data in the attached file.

A lot of guessing by a lot of people over the years.

There are not very many M2's listed over 3500 but there are a few as have been noted in this post.

We did a survey here on this form a few years back at that time not one M2 was listed as being over SN 3500.

The old books are largely wrong on the Portuguese data, those new books that simply copy that data are just as wrong.

It's a bit frustrating at times.

Contrary to popular belief the Portuguese often ordered very small batches of lugers. Keep an open mind when discussing serial number ranges.

Hope this helps

Vern

In this chart we see again 3500 instead of 5000.

And the lack of serial numbers showing in the 4000 range also points in that direction.

No explanation so far for MFC's # 3803.

The same is valid for Brazilian Lugers.
That is why I started my database about that ones.
I will follow this topic closely, as both countries (Brazil and Portugal) purchased their 1906 Lugers in the same time frame.

By the way: out of curiosity, I just took a look at Simpson's inventory and they have five 1906 Portuguese Luger for sale now - the highest serial number noted is 33xx.

Douglas.

Got the 3902 M2 with pics in my data

How do I find the pictures?

Perhaps a little kiss !!!:order:

From my computer and other luger collector

Highest number so far 3902.

Merci Patrice.

Sn 4460 is referenced in the old Lugers at Random book as being highest SN known.

This is likely where the 5000 produced came from

It is my understanding that roughly 1000 M2's were transferred to the Navy, these guns may or may not have had the M2 crest and may help explain the missing 1000 guns

So you may have a scattering of M2's in the higher ranges but most went to the Navy.

all of this is theory and no one has proven it as of this date but obviously more than one collector has come across this before but no follow through.

Some research is needed:

Interesting.

For those of you tracking this there are more than one variation of M2 crest.

Vern

Can you tell me the source of that info? I've never heard of that before and since the Navy had it's own independent contracts, and in a different caliber to boot, I find that transfer rather unlikely. For the later 9mm Army contracts it's quite possible.

On the other hand there's allways the possibility that the Army transferred some weapons to the GNR when it was created, and if so maybe it's where the defacing of some of the pistols was done.

To Douglas Jr.

Your profile doesn't allow private messages. So, Thanks:D

Really? :eek: I will fix that.
But I'm glad you enjoy it.
Douglas

I found this at ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUGER-P08-BA...item35db10f1a0

It is the barrel - receiver - toggle assembly from a M2 Portuguese Luger.
The barrel bears serial number 3647 (with the circled triangle just below it). The receiver, however, does not match it.

Douglas.

Thanks Douglas!
Still leaves roughly 1495 missing guns :)
I know some guns were defaced but honestly I have only seen maybe 20 in the past 10 years.

There is something missing to the Portuguese story.
It is unfortunate that more research has not been done, same goes for the Brazilian contract.

We suffer from lack of interest but much has yet to be discovered-- interesting to me :)

Show me one early picture of the Portuguese Navy with luger side arms? Any body got one?

Vern

Mine is defaced # 2703. Make it 21.
And I still have no proved explanation for the defaced pistols both Army and Navy.:confused:

Best I could get.

Portuguese Navy Batallion leaving for Angola in 1914.

Attachment 42987
Attachment 42988

Those pictures made my day. Thank you Mário!

You might as well see it all.:D

http://www.momentosdehistoria.com/MH_02_10_Marinha.htm

Interesting reading! :thumbup:

Google translates the battalion as 'marine' but I think it should be better translated as 'maritime'...

What is a 'soliped'??? :D A camel??? A horse??? :p

I would not mind having that cannon assembly... ;)

It's a complicated history, but in 1914 Portugal didn't have an actual Marine Corps, as you said above they had sailors with infantry training who were assigned ground assault duty.

Portugal present Marine Corps (Corpo de Fuzileiros Navais) was created in 1961 but they trace their origins back to 1618, As I said complicated.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo_de_Fuzileiros


Yes a horse. A rather elaborate way of saying it.:D The normal word is cavalo.


The funny part is... In 1914 Portugal was neutral, we had no part in the Europe battle ground. But was sort of at war with the Germans in Africa. It was only in 1916 that Portugal entered the war. The other funny part. When Portuguese troops went to France they were equiped with British Enfield rifles and .32 Savage pistols.

I wasn't sure if you were of Portuguese descent or not, but it may interest you to know that the United States Navy has a 'Naval Infantry" detachment, or did back in 1971, when I was in the Marines. (I found it out by accident). I think all Navy ships now carry 'ground assault' trained sailors - "VBSS detachments", whether they have Marines on board or not.

I have a desire to one day visit Portugal, and probably some of Spain as well. :) I've already visited Germany. :rolleyes:

The 2M Luger cannon on eBay interests me...But I can't decide if it is worth even the starting bid... :confused:

Thank you very much for the pictures! :)

Ok, holster guys & gals, how many of you would say that is the correct holster for Royal or RP navy? Looks a bit long in the muzzle to me?

Vern

I would say that they are M2 not navy Lugers. I know that some of the navy holsters with the attached shoulder strap were made for the 120mm barrel length (I have one) so I do believe that some portion of the 1908 M2 Lugers were transferred to the Navy for marine/ground assault units. Just my opinion, no documented evidence other than photos and holsters.

That could very well be (the holsters in the pictures do indeed look too long for the navy lugers). But I fail to see the reason why they would equip themselves with army models in a different caliber than their own pistols. It would make sense for logistic reasons since they were operating with the army, but the rifles/carbines that can be seen in the hands of sailors are kropatscheks. The army was using the Mauser-Vergueiro by then. So ammunition compatibility doesn't seem to be the issue.

It's frustrating to say the least.

And I'm getting off my own topic. :D

And found another picture.

Attachment 43020

There is a possible explanation for the serial numbers above 3500.

In a perfect world there would be 3500 pistols numbered 1 to 3500. But, a number of pistols would likely fail the production tests and others could even have been rejected on arrival, the circled triangle acceptance mark must mean something afterall :rolleyes:, so in order to fullfill a 3500, contract the serial numbers may run higher than 3500, but there must be some gaps in between.

Off course I've not a shred of evidence to support this.:o

Dear Mario,

I have a friend in Italy who is writting an article about the Portuguese Lugers. He needs some help regarding vintage pictures and other info. I thought about put him in touch with you since you have been studying these variations.
If you agree, can you send me a message to jrdouglas@uol.com.br for further discussions?

________________________________________________________________________ ______________

EDIT - Found another one, serial number 3543 at cabellas:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/DWM-P...mm/1889836.uts


Saudações fraternas,

Douglas.