Luger and General German Handgun question
 

So its a well known fact that Germany in the second World War issued ungodly amounts of handguns and various side arms to its Military, but from what I understand they weren't for issued for everyone. Now my first question was why were they so obsessed with handguns? And although they were issued in mass numbers they didn't feel the handgun was as viable weapon in combat like the US did?

Second question is; in photos, historical footage, and even Hollywood films the German side arm is ALWAYS carried on the left side despite whether you were left or right handed? Why was this done? If a soldier, NCO, or Officer was predominantly right handed and need to draw his side arm, would a cross draw be the least effective way to do so?

The first question might find its roots in the idea of pistols as a badge of rank, which was important to the Germans and can readily deduced by their over elaborate uniforms and rank insignia.

The second question is that officers and non com's were predominantly horsemen in the beginning and all carried a sword. The holster was placed on the opposite side so as not to interfere with the drawing of this primary weapon.

Years ago in a major gun magazine an article was done on the numbers of souvenir pistols.

The remark was made that "If every German serving had 3 pistols and all were brought back, it might account for most of the numbers one sees today.
There certainly is a bunch of them.

They were very authority conscious and even a tiny piece indicated someone to note.

Those military holsters required 2 hands-one to open then pull the assist strap and one to draw the pistol.
The soft P38s solved that.

Mike, I Would LOVE to read that article, do you think you'd be able to send me the link to it?

Mike, Dr. Mauser, personally, I would not put that much stock in an article that made the comment. The author did not have a grasp on the shear size of the German army thru two world wars.
Only a small percentage of the weapons manufactured actually survive today. (a few percent)Most were destroyed in battle, or upon surrender to allied forces. Every year, due to fire, flood, govt confiscation, etc.... their are far less than after the wars.
The US Goverment has not needed to buy a new manufacture 1911 frame since WWII.

left side carry
 

hope this great pic turns out of alternative carry position , , hi to all members

Late to the conversation.

Pistols in the German army were not a privilege of rank, unlike the US army. In the German army pistols were issued to soldiers who's duties made it impractical to carry a rifle or carbine--motorcyclists, machine gun and artillery crews, technical specialists are just a few who come immediately to mind. Pistols (not necessarily P08s) were also issued to civilian staff in the army's employ.

"German Pistols and Holsters 1934-1945, vol. IV" by Robert Whittington is a detailed compendium of how the Wehrmacht was armed, based on the German KStN regulations (the German equivalent of the US Table of Organization and Equipment). It makes for very enlightening reading.

The primary purpose of the P08 holster was to protect the pistol from the environment. It was not a primarily offensive weapon; its use was somewhat more deliberate so "quick-draw" capability was not particularly pertinent.

--Dwight

Think you have that somewhat skewed.
Europeans havr always seen sidearms of any type a badge of rank. Daggers and bayonets included.
So have many others.

In the US, outside military law enforcement or officers, handguns were for members of crew served weapons, armored vehicles or others whose jobs made longer weapons impractical.

They also were not considered offensive weapons primarily, but were there ready for instant use.
I think some people who write military books and even regs envisualise some things not from experience.

From my own experience, having something like a P 08 in a field environment would be a nightmare. A lot of time in dirty swamp water fully submerged.

They did learn and finally dumped them for the more practical P 38 with softshell holster.
Possibly saved some lives on their side.

I agree with Mike. There are hundreds of photos of high ranking European officers wearing itty-bitty pistols, (think Baby Brownings and other pistols in .25 or .32 caliber), which would seem silly in any other context but that of badge of rank.

German officers were required to buy their own sidearms. Most of them preferred not to carry big, bulky, heavy front-line pistols when not actually in combat.

--Dwight

Actually, the carrying of hand guns has always been seen as quite ordinary and vulgar by most of the officers in European armies, especially when attending public events, parties and meetings.

When they had to carry something, they chose to carry something that was small and easily concealable.

Dwight is spot on with his remark that the Germans used logic: Where it is impractible or impossible to carry a rifle, you carry a pistol instead.

Also something to remember: The vast majority of German hand guns on todays USA markets are NOT veteran bring backs. They were imported by the hundred thousands by mostly one importer: Interarms. Interarms bought virtually all German (and other) European surplus handguns between 1950 and 1990. The buying frenzy of Interarms caused the US inland arms industry to protest and force a change of import laws, which led to the 1968 Gun Control Act. By that time, Interarms had amassed such a large amount of weapons that they could supply the US market for years to come.

The question really is: were officers REQUIRED to wear sidearms? If so, then I would agree with your argument, if there was no requirement to wear them, then that would speak to them being worn as a badge of rank.

I'll throw this in here...I read many years ago that German mothers would often buy a son in the military (whether officer or 'other ranks') a small handgun ostensibly for emergency use... :rolleyes:

Supposedly, this is where the small caliber, easily concealed handguns that were captured/surrendered came from...

The inference was that a .32 auto may not be terribly effective as a defensive weapon but was rather the mothers expression of love and confidence in the sons' survivability...Kind of a good luck charm, like a US mother might give a St Christophers charm...

My friends father brought back a small CZ model 27 that he took from a captured German soldier...Ugly but interesting... :thumbup:

First. German officer always carried their sword on the LEFT side, so in lieu of a sword the pistol was carried in the same location and with butt forward, they would use a "cross draw". In the days of the cavalry, when a sword was worn, a pistol if used was normally just stuck in the belt or in holsters attached to the horse or saddle. During WW2 many smaller .32 pistols were issued to second line troops (occupation, medical, etc) or to tankers and aviators. Also, since the Waffen SS, had it's own supply chain, many foreign made pistols, were all that was available to them. TH The Luftwaffe also had it's own supply chain and normally only supplied 9mm pistols to ground troops (AA batteries, air field security, etc) and air crews would normally have non-German made .32s, Since if a bomber was shot down over England, the chances of any of the crew getting back to friendly lines was slim, if they even survived the crash.

Given the circumstances, I'd rather be carrying a pistol than a religious medal!

In the Wehrmacht the Luger Pistol was the sidearm of the NCOs and specialized
formations, like as paratroopers, tank crews and pilots.
It was, NEVER an officer’s weapon.
While Italian Army officers were given the small BERETTA 34, officers in the German Armed Forces received some sort of "bonus" with which they could buy their own sidearm, and this was mostly the Walther PP and PPK, and mainly in caliber 7,65 mm .
Also machine gun and mortar crews were equipped with the Luger P08, as well as police and all sorts of semi/para military organisations and the SS .
Later the P.08 was replaced by the WALTHER P38 pistol.
Our beloved "Luger pistols" were simply the standard sidearm of the Wehrmacht, full stop.
In the course o half of a century about 2 million of Lugers were produced, but the Luger was NEVER a status symbol for high rank officers, just a tool, nothing else.

Sergio

Recently, I found a testimonial written during WW1 by a German petty officer who was wounded during a Trench raid. He defended himself succesfully with a Mauser Model 1910 .25 ACP pistol and earned himself an Iron Cross 2nd class. He wounded 2 Russian soldiers with it.

It wouldn't be my first choice, but I was surprised to see that these little pistols were not only carried, but were actually used in combat as well.

My late great uncle told me that he had two small caliber pistols on him during the battles.
He was a machine gun shooter (maxim). He told that it was so heavy to change position during the action, so sometimes he had to shoot "a couple of soviet soldiers" while doing that. If they got too close.
Actually he was called cowboy because of those two pistols. :thumbup:

The magazine artical was I think in "GUNS" about 1963 or so.

I never take anything as gospel, it was a whimsical remark by the author. Not meant as a guide or justification.
I always forget that a sense of humor is not required to participate in the internet.

As a kid in the 50s I hounded local vets for souveniers. I lived in a rural area where most every family had several.
Sometimes a Luger or P38 bobbed up-I am closing in on a Luger currently.
Mostly I found lots of .32 and .25 autos followed by Japanese rifles.
That continues. A whole lot of pistols made their way here via GIs.

I have seen a number of pics with officers armed with P08s. Both holsters and guns in hand.

Never ever say always or never.

A bit of sociological study on European culture, even through WW2, will reveal the authoriatarian nature of society and how badges or objects of rank were a big deal.

One reason for all the nifty daggers and dress bayonets.
I have read accounts of this in some diaries or autobiographical stuff over the years.

It is curious that most of our European contributors are so adamantly opposed to the concept of pistols as a badge of rank when it seems so obvious to many of us.

Living in Europe helps :)

Carrying a pistol over here is a pain in the butt anyway. Permits everywhere, accounting for every single round of ammunition, unloading and loading the magazines time and time again for safety reasons. It gets boring and irritating very quickly. Not to mention that you'd have to do even more paperwork and a whole lot of explanations when one pulls the trigger anyway. So most in the military don't mind leaving their pistols in the barracks arsenals and just do their daily business without a side arm.

When I did my guard duty at the army base gates, the pistol and uzi magazines had been loaded and unloaded so many times that the ammo was practically useless. Not to mention the quality of the guns and magazines. I was issued an Uzi with a repair tag, it was still on the gun when I left....

So do you suppose anyone actually died at the hands of a German officer armed with a 2nd Model Luftwaffe dagger? I suspect they claimed only a few weinersnitchels.
dju

Gerben

I totally agree with you.

The funny thing is that also our police forces when they are not on duty leave their guns at home in the safe, some of them once told me that "... in any case I' not allowed to use it, too many responsibilities.."

I live in a quiet area thank God.

Sergio

Vlim, you are discussing the point from the perspective of a modern, post war Europe while the original question pertains to practices at the turn of nineteenth century. While the German Empire and later the Nazis where able to arm a wide variety of troops with firearms, I still maintain that in its origins, when only officers could afford them, a sidearm was seen as a badge of rank.

Alan, not much changed between pre- and postwar europe in that respect.

A gun was a gun, not a badge of rank. The carrying of swords and daggers was (and still is) done on special occassions, as part of a dress uniform.

There were a couple of guys, including Goering, who suffered from a chronical overdress condition. They were looked upon as a bunch of pimps and drag queens by their direct contacts.

If you take a look ad period photographs and fim footage, you will notice, that expecially on official occassions, no higher ranking officials are carrying a gun in public or during leasurely meetings. Only on official portraits and during duty you will see them with holsters/guns.

If you look at period photos of Hitler speaking at ralleys, parades, etc, the officers around him are unarmed. I thought it was a security issue, but maybe not.
dju