comments on my Navy Luger please
 

This is my Navy Luger. I beleive I have a decent gun. I just wish somebody hadn't reblued it. The bluing does appear brighter in the images. It is matching except the mag. I highly value the info and comments I have received on this forum, so please have at it.

Hi Bernard, I'm afraid your photos are very nearly useless. All I can tell is that your gun is probably a refinished and re-barreled 1908 model. Can you show a clear photo of the serial number on the front of the frame, if I'm right it will have a b suffix below it. If not we will need more, and better, photos.
Regards, Norm

Here is a picture of the frame. I will get better pictures as soon as possible. Thank you.

The gun has been buffed noticeably, as well. No suffix that I can see on either barrel or frame.

OK Bernard, Back to square one. Have you checked ALL the serial numbers? Breech block, middle toggle, and rear toggle (the one with the adjustable sight). The side-plate, trigger, and sear bar. Are the hold open and sear bar numbered? And most importantly, can we see a photo of the right rear side of the receiver with the toggle axle removed? We need to know if it's the large flanged type.
Regards, Norm

Here's a picture of the back. The holes aren't oversized. When I get my good camera back, I'll take better pictures. everything except the trigger #91 and grips #28 match. The hold open, firing pin, rear toggle pin, and trigger bar aren't numbered. Can I get an estimate on it's worth? Thank you.

As re-blues go, it isn't as bad as some we see here, not by a long shot. But can we see closeups of the breach block, the front toggle portion, showing the extractor. I'm seeing something(s) that puzzle me.
Thanks, and nice gun.
Ideas on value will follow.
dju

Barrel alignment marks, look messed with, could be a barrel off restoration or just a re barrel job. The serial number on the barrel is not the same font as on the frame.

I dont understand what I am seeing on top of the breachblock?

thanks for posting

Vern

Hi Bernard, As far as I can tell your gun was put together from two different guns, the top half from a 1906, and the bottom from a 1908 Navy. The barrel is a replacement. Anyway, hopefully it's a good shooter.
Regards, Norm

I've never shot it before, but I'll run a mag or two through it soon. Can you give me a value? Thank you, Bernie.

Can we see a top-down photo of the area around the extractor?
Value is tough to determine until other questions are answered, but decent Navy shooters frequently bring around $2k.
dju

So am I completely nuts or am I seeing 2 blanked off screw holes, one on either side of the extractor?
dju

I am pretty sure your breachblock has been damaged and some attempt made at repair.

This is pretty common with barrel replacements & parts guns, the extractor is pushed up to the point that it tears the top of the breachblock open after a few rounds.
So head spacing may be an issue, also too hot of ammunition can do the same as well as a bent ejector.

I will let others jump in as I dont do gunsmithing much anymore but I am pretty sure this is what your dealing with.

Shooting the gun will likely cause more damage--some serious caution is suggested

Vern

Yes, there are two holes in the breech block. One on each side of the extractor. I'll take pictures tomorrow. Have you guys ever seen such a thing?

OK, I'll admit it. I've never seen such a thing.
dju

There is no logical reason to have drilled these holes, unless it is some attempt at a gas relief system. The gun may have been de-milled at some point. Regardless of the reasoning, the breechblock is now significantly weaker than stock.

I agree with those who recommend a very careful approach to firing this gun. Close-up photos of all angles of the breechblock would be helpful.

Interesting gun.

Questions:
Do you own more than 1 Luger? Or know someone else who does? If yes, please photograph the two rear toggle pins side by side. Is one flange larger than the other

Please provide clear focus close up photo of the breechblock from all angles. Approximately what diameter and depth are the two unusual holes? Are they drilled straight down or at an angle? If at an angle please insert and appropriate size pin or drill bit to show the angle and direction.

I have never seen a breechblock modified in this manner and I am perplexed by their purpose.

They seem to be chamfered as well...Or maybe I'm just seeing the angle of the thread...Odd... :confused:

As noted, the buffing isn't really terrible...But even hot-dipping over pits is, er, the pits... :rolleyes:

Hi John, This is definitely a small flange receiver, this is what the countersink for a large flange looks like.
Regards,Norm

Those holes first made me think of scope mount screw holes on top of rifle receivers, when not used are filled with flush-fitting filler screws. Surely no one had some sort of sight or scope mounted there?
dju

Shell deflector??? :D

Any sight assembly mounted on a breechblock wouldn't last very long. The G-sheer forces involved would snap the mount screws in short order.

What I am submit as my guess is that this modification is some armchair engineer/gunsmith's idea to bore gas relief holes in the event of a primer being pierced... the holes would vent gases flowing into the firing pin channel, instead of blowing the firing pin out the rear of the breechblock.

I don't see the holes as a major threat to structural integrity... but is certainly not as strong as Georg Luger designed it...

A real shame to do such a thing to a Navy Luger.

That is a very odd modification and looks very much like the breechblock of a Borchardt! I also agree that it probably was an attempt to vent gas from a ruptured primer. I forget which country routinely bored a hole in the bottom of the Luger breechblock for that purpose.

When you say 'vent gas', you're referring to the entire powder load blowing back through the primer??? :eek:

How prevalent was this, that the [Luger] manufacturers actually modified the firing pin??? :confused:

From your identification, this is an early Navy (most or all of it). Was this some kind of well-known 'stopgap' modification before the fluted firing pins came out???

I don't think the entire powder load blows back with a pierced primer...but I don't know for sure.:) The grooved firing pin that was a production feature later than this gun was designed for just that purpose, to vent the gases. I am sure this was not a factory "stopgap" modification as I know of no other Luger, Navy or otherwise, with this modification.

Not the entire load... the cartridge could fire but leak gas out that tiny primer pierce. I have seen it happen in bolt action rifles that someone used reloads that were mistakenly loaded with pistol primers not intended for rifle pressures...

Certainly not a pleasant experience for those in close proximity, but if the rifle is properly designed for it Vented Bolt and receiver e.g., M1903A3 Springfield, it should not be that dangerous.

I have never seen it happen in a Luger... :confused:

I guess Ron Wood is a much faster draw than I am... He finished his post before I hit the "save" button on mine :D

Obvioulsy not "well known"... just based on this discussion thread, but I do believe that the fluted firing pin modifications were the factory's response to reported primer failures... I doubt anyone could document the numbers of those failures at this late time. :rolleyes: I also don't believe that the two holes on this example are original from the factory.

:eek: Wow... I bet if a primer let loose with the modification described by Ron above, that the gas rush would probably blow the magazine right out the grip!

I can recall pics of such a catastrophic blow-down, probably right here on this forum...Mag body still in place; bottom blown out and spring hanging down...

However, if the Borchardt had such a venting mod to the breechblock, why not the Luger??? Especially after going to the 9mm Parabellum from the 7.65 Parabellum (essentially a shortened 7.65 Borchardt)... :confused:

The holes are drilled through to the breech block chamber. They do appear to be vents. They also appear to be factory, but I'm only a novice. If it is an after factory modification, any idea if it was done in the U.S. or Europe? I have included an image with my Mauser for comparison. I wish I had my good camera. Thank you, Bernie.

Thank you for the additional photo of the breechblock. I have never seen this mod on a Luger before. There is sooooo much to learn concerning P-08s.

I thought vents holes at first too but the picture of the breachblock looks strange to me and the more I looked at it the more concern I had. It is most likely a trick of the camera but what is that groove near the top front nearest you?
interesting!

Vern

Considering that it is the first of its kind that we have seen, it will be pretty difficult to determine where or when it was done. However we seem to be well on the way to "why".
So if the holes end in the firing pin chamber, is the breach block weakened to the point that it should not be shot?
If it were mine, I'd be at the range right now. Just checking it after each shot or 2...
dju

I don't think I have ever quoted myself before! :thumbsup: :D