A Reblue Comparison~
 

I finally bought a reblued shooter to of course shoot. George Anderson sold me a pretty shooter pictured above. Side by side the differences is striking. Loss of detail especially. The shiny new looking grip screws are a dead give away. The smell test is a myth! I posted this side by side comparison to help others to not to be fooled! Eric

I think the smell test is more for chemical hiding of loss of bluing (cold blue) as it comes off fairly easily.

They have some cold bluing out there that I find darkens metal some, but not incredibly. It leaves little small, but does not match with a luger bluing.

It is usually easy to tell a reblue when compared to non reblue, problem is, many folks have seen few lugers and thus have trouble believing us when we tell them its a reblue...

Ed would it be different if the didn't any sanding?

Ted does a great job including straw work! http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

Eric,

Nice comparison. Side by side, questions about original finish or not become moot.

A couple of things:

1. A professional restorer has to prep the metal before re-bluing. This necessitates bringing the state of the surface as close as possible to that of the original "in the white" factory gun. But to do that, they have to grind and sand and polish the metal. Edges become blurry, markings are washed out, etc. The gun loses it sharp appearance and looks rounded. But then the gun is blued, typically on a late Luger, by Salt Bluing, i.e. dipping the gun parts into a hot salts bath. Now this hot salt process is chemically, basically the same as the one that the factory used. It does not smell/stink. A really good professional does his best to minimize "changes" from the original but the tell tales are always there.

2. Cold bluing is another story. It is typically used to touch up areas of wear. There is minimal metal prep. It goes on cold. It stinks, literally. Only a rank amateur would cold blue the entire gun and try to pass it off as original.

But, as I, and others, have said; the best way to identify a refinished gun is NOT to look at the finish itself, but to look at the underlying metal of the gun. Are edges sharp?? Are holes clean, or is the surface around them dished? Are there bruises/dents in the metal, scratches, pitting, etc. that have been blued over. Are the areas that should be in the white blued over? On Rust blued guns are there halos present where they should be? Is there a brown patina, under the bluing that is visible is strong day light?

Again, thanks for the side by side.

John

John your my hero! You more than anyone was simply explained the process. I'm posting my Kriegoff that has unbelievably finish. Did they us a different process?

What a shame it is that so much metal has to be removed to get a nice finish... :(

But that explains why there are so many piece-of-crap refinished Lugers out there! :D

Rich take a look at Teds' site. He posts pictures of his finished product. He keeps his prayers in his right pocket and pride in the other!~~Eric

Eric,

HK used salt bluing, same as Mauser. The difference in finish, primarily is the better surface preparation. Simply put, they did a better job polishing the parts before bluing. Took a little more time and effort.

Same is true for interchangeability standards. They were remarkably better than Mauser as a result of machining to a closer tolerance. Much less hand fitting and fewer rejections than Mauser for head space issues.

But in all fairness HK operated almost like a custom shop compared to Mauser. To put things into perspective, the entire HK first contract of 10,000 guns was produced from late 1935 to beginning of 1938, call it 26-27 months, or 113 working weeks. Mauser typically produced that many P.08s in 3 1/2 working weeks and they consistently did, on average 10-12,000 guns per month from 1934 to 1942. And...many, many improvements to the gun along the way while eliminating unnecessary steps and simplifying production.

John

The truth of the matter is in the numbers! 10,000 as compaired to a million~ The leather was first rate! #7932~~ matching mags...

John what come first proofs or finish?

At HK, parts and guns were manufactured and fitted in the white. Both LWaA inspection proofs and Final Test Proofs were applied in the white. Salt bluing then took place. In the case of small parts, they were Straw blued using heat as the oxidizing agent..

However this was not always the case as in the early days of Luger manufacture some marks were applied after bluing resulting in the halos we observe today.

John

Can you clarify 'in the white' I never heard of this and it must have been an important step!!! Do you mean a part of the pre-blueing process? Tks John!!

Eric,

"In the white" equals Bare Metal.

John

Re partial blueing
 

Thanks John, How were these parts treated? Did they have to remove the blueing from the rails and other bare surfaces individually? It looks tedious and labor intensive! Eric

Actually Eric, just the opposite... the whole gun starts out white unfinished steel. Then the rust bluing was applied discreetly to each part leaving the white exposed (internal surfaces) where it was thought it wouldn't matter that bluing wasn't applied. VERY labor intensive!

Thanks John, Amazing! I wondered how they achieved a correct and matching luger with all 40 or so parts and then hundred of thousands!! One observation, How come Erfurt was some many proofs as compared to the others?

Erfurt was a military arsenal rather than a commercial firm like DWM. Therefore military marking standards applied much more stringently to weapons production. My own personal theory is that being a government entity it was staffed with government personnel. Job security depended on demonstration of job performance so the inspectors made sure that their mark was applied whenever possible. :)

I took a picture of the underside of the barrel. What is the '882'??

Eric,

8.82 mm is the caliber/gauge/inside diameter of the barrel.

And BTW, the reason they went to Salt Bluing from Rust Bluing was to reduce labor. Rust bluing is fantastically labor intensive.

John

TKS What method has the finest results? Do you know when they made the change?

Rust blue is more beautiful... Salt bluing in my opinion is more durable... but that is a subjective thing. The change from rust to salt bluing was made as a wartime expedient in manufacturing in mid 1937 at Mauser.

Thank You John. The early commercials seem much prettier!

So do the salt blued Lugers have these bare surfaces? Salt bluing is a dip process, so they should end up blued inside and out. I only have rust blued Lugers so I don't have anything to compare with. Then again, "I have read on the Internet" that some salt blued Lugers had galling problems due to the tight tolerances, and that they had to leave the bluing off of some bearing surfaces. If they did that, it would be interesting to know how it was done.

Anyway, I have been wondering about that white metal for quite a while, it seems like it would be almost impossible to get such crisp lines without masking it off or polishing after the bluing. I have rust blued several guns, but despite my best efforts, I always end up with some bluing where it shouldn't be. This makes me wonder how they did it in a production setting. Seen from a time saving perspective, it would make sense to do some final polishing after bluing if you want that effect.

Bluing is simply corrosion resistance and offers no friction to moving parts. I don't know the source of the stories about salt blued guns "galling" but IMHO you can classify it as old collector wives tales. I almost fell off my seat when I read that. :roflmao::roflmao:

Did the other luger producers use the simular blueing methods. It must have been more difficult during the war especially! Nothing beats the Erfurts with proof and inspection markings during that time. They all seem to be simular while preserving their beauty and intregity. They retain their quality and allure! It amazes me the overwhelming numbers of fine lugers produced during war time and the Weimer period with all the restrictions. One reason I love the police lugers luger for for a human part of German historiy. More so the unit marked lugers realizing the hell most have gone through! You can read German history by the type of luger produced and its markings. 'They are even more relevent today than ever as so they will become in future generations. Lugers will never change only their owners. Your opinion and questions will be read and will play a valuable asset in its' future collectors~~~

Well, bluing is a different material added to the surface of the steel, so I don't find it unlikely that it could change the characteristics, for better or for worse. I don't know where I found this information though, it's just one of them things that stuck in my mind when I read it.

So are salt blued Lugers blued inside out like other salt blued guns, or do they have the same, bare surfaces as the rust blued guns?

Actually, Bluing is a transformation / electrochemical conversion of the surface layer of steel molecules. It's not really the addition of anything but oxygen. There is a good article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

Iron oxide (steel being iron and carbon) occurs in several different molecular forms. The form we call "Bluing" is magnetite, Fe3O4, the black oxide form of iron oxide. Magnetite is denser and thus harder than steel,

Rust is the Fe2O3 form of iron oxide. Rust is soft because it increases in volume many times during it's chemical conversion.

Bluing works to protect steel from rusting because the top surface is already oxidized into magnetite. This is why you can see red oxide rust deep in the surface of old blued guns. The layer just beneath the top layer isn't magnetite, and as steel can continue to oxidize into red Fe2O3 oxide over the years.

Marc

Nice post, new readers/ collectors should understand that it is possible to bring a gun back to nearly factory standard leaving all markings intact. It is very labor intensive but possible. Rare lugers are often the target of such restorations. Interesting though, almost always at least one short cut is done. I dont know if this is simply human nature or what but it happens often enough that it is something to understand and look for. Always look at a gun in it's entirety and dont focus on any particular aspect when buying rare guns.

My two cents worth and not worth much but put the two cents in your pocket, it will save you thousands :)

Vern

Vern good point!
 

I've seen Ted Green's work first hand! It take allot of knowledge time and patience. The give away is generally sanding its features away. Can't the remove the old with chemical without eracing the high points. Somehow Ted overcomes that hurdle!The other issue is strawing which he has mastered. Pull up his site and let me know what you all think~~Eric http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

Salt bluing and rust bluing are indeed oxidation processes. What I call "a different material" is the oxide, as it has a different chemical structure and different properties than the steel. Anodizing is also an oxidation process, it adds nothing more than oxygen to the aluminum, but it does also change the characteristics of the surface. It protects it from further oxidation, but the oxidation also changes other properties. In the case of aluminum, the oxide is harder than the aluminum (not sure about the lubricity though) so anodizing actually prevents galling.

Anyway, my point is that any oxide layer can change more than the resistance to corrosion, and the question is if bluing will increase or decrease the lubricity. It may not even be the lubricity of the oxide layer that matters, it could also be its ability to retain lubricants.

If this really mattered on salt blued Lugers is another story, but knowing the anal nature of German engineers, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they actually did study this.

Randall Gibson in The Kriegoff Parabellum writes~

Thanks Eric!

If you read the caption under the picture of the frame, it does actually say that they polished some surfaces to reduce friction.

It proves the books usually have most of the answers!! They need some revisiting~~Eric

My question! The reblues I have have been growned down losing it features. Can't the prep a gun with chemical means instead of abrasives!

Eric, you can remove the bluing with chemicals, but you can't remove rust, pits, scratches, etc. That is why the amateurs use abrasives and buffing wheels.

To quote the most famous person who ever lived:

"Father-forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Ted Green is no longer an amateur... but I am proud to say that I knew him when he was! :)

The difference is striking!!

I need help with this one~ What is considered a restored as opposed to a just a reblued or reconditioned. How is value diminshed by a tiny replacement such spring that was broken and replaced in battle? How does a replacement part affect it value and originality. An Erfurt on the other hand has just about every part individually proofed. A replacement numbered spring can be noticed while a replacement on a DWM won't be as it isn't marked! What is meant by 100% complete~ This one seems the most troublesome! I'm aware a mutual mistake is fine unless the seller misrepresents or misleads the guns' condition!! Generally what part is most prone to breakage~~This is why I purchased a shooter from George Anderson who made me aware of fireing an all correct historically significent luger over a hundred years old is stupid! There could never be a luger blue book as lugers unlike most are truly individual like personalities and history. Each unique and most have their own individual story and are therefor unique in themselves. Starting from a couple of hundred dollars to almost one million and everywhere in between~ Eric

Actually Rust Blue is more durable and more rust resistant than modern hot salt tank bluing. If done with at least 6 pulls (rusting, boiling in distilled water and carding) the layer of magnatite or "black iron rust" is much thicker than the black oxide layer of lye based hot salt blue. In most cases the rust blue is not as shiney as hot salt bluing, but it looks more soft, translucent and deeper. I have carefully rust blued basket case non-matching lugers with strawed parts for EFI, LLC (of Sons of Guns fame-espisode "Master Blaster") clients with excellent results. These were pre-war mix master guns that were almost brown with little or no blue left. Hand polishing as to not disturb roll marks and stamps is the key and removing all metal flaws helps keep the gun looking original.

Eric

Quoting what John said
... the whole gun starts out white unfinished steel. Then the rust bluing was applied discreetly to each part leaving the white exposed (internal surfaces) where it was thought it wouldn't matter that bluing wasn't applied... Unquote

That's why they numbered so many parts that once blued had to be refitted together.

Thanks for the interesting side by side comparison!

Sergio