Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

I've read the article on this site about holster preservation. For years I've used 100% neatsfoot oil as a leather preservative--it does darken the leather. How does the Picard and Lexol compare-especially as to the darkening of the leather. I've just acquired an excellent condition brown Luger holster that I want to do the right thing by.Thanks for any advice.

SHOWTIME! (EOM)
 

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

I used neatsfoot oil years ago. Found that it not only darkened the leather but softened it so much that it eventually came apart.I have used Picard ANTIQUE on all of my leather and never had it darken anything. I understand that the Picard ANTIQUE is the choice of many museums. I have the web site for Picard if you are interested. Regards Mac

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

I am a horse person for years i too have used neatsfoot oil (no good for old stiches) go to local tackshop get some horsemens one step you will be surprised on results Charlie

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Neatsfoot oil has the added feature of dissolving the fibers of leather. It will make it nice and soft but if you want to keep it around for any length of time..don't use it.

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

I'll add my support to Picard ANTIQUE. It's the best I've seen. Lugerholsterrepair (Jerry Burney) should step in. He has a bunch more experience than I do in this regard.

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

Hey guys. I think it was Marvin that had a great link to a leather site four or five months ago and it was a great site. Marvin..If you have that or can find it I think it would be time to re-run that one. If we can find that one it is worth reading for every Forum member that wants to preserve leather.


Neatsfoot oil was developed to break down the fibers of shoe soles that were too stiff. This stuff is poison to holster leather. It will soften it and every movement thereafter will help to pull the leather fibers apart.


I use my own potions and really like them both for different purposes. On new vegetable tanned leather I use Dr. Jackson's Hide Rejuvinator. Available from Tandy Corp. The other I use for vintage German holsters is Hide food made by an English firm for exclusive use for Jaguar dealerships on their leather car seats. As far as I know it is only available at a Jaguar dealership. Contrary to popular belief I do not know everything there is to know about preserving leather. I use two products that seem to work for me but in fact it could proove down the road that something else was or is better. I try to have an open mind about it and learn as much as possible. Jerry Burney

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

As Jerry stated, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER put neatsfoot oil on a holster, it will eventually be ruined!


The leather site must be on my work computer. I will try to remember Monday morning to post it if I still havew the address.


Marvin

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

Jerry, it never hurts to repeat GOOD information! Keep reminding us of DO NOTS! I appreciate your knowledge of leather topics! ~Thor~

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Not only does it ruin the leather it provides a "free lunch" to the bugs and mold that do such a great job on eating your holster. The stuff is awful for old leather.


The Hyde Food Jerry mentioned is also available at Rolls Royce dealerships; most of whom will be glad to mail it to you-call their parts department-I have used it for many years and found it to be a great product for putting moisture back into a dried holster.


FWIW


Tom

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Hi Treebeard,


Avoid Neatsfoot oil like the plague.


Iâ??ve had the best luck with â??Dr. Jacksonâ??s Hide Rejuvenatorâ?� from Tandy Leather. But then I donâ??t do anything to a holster unless itâ??s in dire straights to begin with.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

This is a joke, right? Is someone trying to murder me at a distance by inducing a heart attack?


Dave

holster guy in Colorado

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

If you read the Pecard web site you will see it indicates Pecard for leather that can not be properly cared for. Unless your leather collection is stored in a jungle that floods every year and freezes every winter. Pecards is not going to help you collection of treasured holsters. I just turned away two rare holsters some unfortunate person Pecard'd. Pecards is a wonderful product for waterproofing (my favorite leather treatment) but like many products only shortens the life of your collectible leather items.


Museums that have SEVERE environmental conditions (like in flood zones or in poor storage buildings, etc) and already seriously damaged leather, cloth, or paper items have techniques for stabilizing and preserving the items. Oiling or otherwise applying creams, soaps or goos is almost never appropriate. The ACS (conservators -- web site at Stanford Univ) and many research studies point to the proper caring for historic leather and other organic artifacts. A summary can be read at


web.uccs.edu/dmclain/Conservation/hn


Dave

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

In high school chemistry you were taught that "like dissolves like". Pecards, neatsfoot oil (or mink oil or other oil), saddle oils, and greases of any kind are petroleum-based solvents of varying viscosity. They each dissolve organic fibers (leather!) at differing rates and are good for protecting leather in rain. Therefore, each of these products will accelerate the breakdown of your leather holsters into the red dust all leather eventually becomes. Treatment with these products may be familiar to you from seeing "red rot" on leather at gun shows. Dissolved leather crumbles. Goos and oils suitable for modern leather items seeing routine use have a very different purpose than you are trying to accomplish by preserving your holster in as new a condition as possible for as long as possible.


You can not "moisturize" or "nourish" leather. You CAN maintain the proper moisture levels in the surrounding air. Leather is very porous and equalizes moisture content with the surrounding air. The only way to moisturize leather is to keep the surrounding air moist--something recommended to a level of 60%. Variation in moisture or temperature is bad.


There are no commercial goos that will help your old leather--be warned these treatments are harmful to your holsters.


Be careful whose advice you listen to--gun show Bob? Whatever you do, if you are not a chemist and conservator specializing in leather, paper, cloth or other organic historicals, follow the rules of the conservator:

DO NOTHING THAT CAN NOT BE REVERSED (the first and best rule to remember)!!!!!:


Keep light low (UV catalizes the breakdown of leather fibers), temp and humidity stable (cool and 55-65%), reduce stress on the object, keep the object clean from dirt and dust.


Dave

holster collector

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

If you own a good piece of leather, i.e. a WWI or whatever time frame holster, just schmear on the Neatsfoot oil. put it away. Come back some time later, the holster wil go blah in your hand, and then the tears will flow, but it wouldn't help. Ruined is ruined.

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

Also called Connolly "Hide Care" picked some up at a Auto Parts store 16 plus dollars for a 284ml jar its not cheap but good.

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

my local shoe repair shop cleaned and treated one of my holsters with saddle soap...came out looking great!!

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

Check the ingredients in Hide Chow (what is it called?) and see if it is basically petroleum based solvents. I can not conceive of what good it could possibly do for a holster except make it glisten a bit. I have read lots of research reports, garnered a degree in chem, worked in chem labs, tried to recover dozens of oily holsters and spent time preserving leather as old as 250 years for a museum and evertime I ask someone why the goo they put on THEIR holsters is so wonderful, they always say, I have used it for years and it works for me. They never can explain what "works for me" means. Their leather holsters, on the other hand, are dark and crumbling.


Be warned.


dave

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Have been using Pecard's Antique Leather Dressing for at least 25 years now on various collectible leathers. There has been no deterioration in the past 25 years, and I know that some of the holsters and slings have been brought back from an early death with treatment with Pecards. As with the use of anything else, common sense and good judgement goes a long way in preservation. Maybe some have had a bad experience with the Pecards slathered on like grease on a wheelbearing, but I defy anyone to look at any of my holsters and tell me that the holster has ever had Pecards on it, or show me any signs of deterioration and imminent decay. It is an absolute fact that all leather will eventually turn to dust no matter how well it is cared for. I recently had the opportunity to possibly purchase a set of the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion which were originally bound in leather. The set of 128 books were originally printed around 1898 and this set had been in a private library that was centrally heated and air conditioned for the last 45 years. The leather was turning to dust, and the acid paper pages would crumble to the touch. These books had never been treated in any way, and still they deteriorated. I will enjoy my holsters and continue to treat them yearly with Pecards, as they will all outlast me by many years. Who knows what the next owner may do with them. I will not lose any sleep as long as my holsters are preserved to my satisfaction for my lifetime.

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Thanks for the information regarding the leather conservation web-site Dave. It is very informative, and I intend to follow their advice.

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

This thread has been on the forum before. I got the very strong impresseion that the best thing to do to an old collectible holster is ... NOTHING! Keep it out of the sun in a nice cozy place, don't squish it and that is that.

Of course I am not an leather expert, a chemist, or any of those things ...

If the holster were new and something I wanted to actually use maybe the story would be different.

FWIW

Re: Why it works for me.
 

Dave I understand where you are coming from and just because Jaguar or Rolls Royce uses Hide care on their leather seats does not make it a great preservative. I have no degrees in chemistry and because of that I keep an open mind when people who do share their knowledge of such things. However I do have experience in working leather and I knopw that when vegetable tanned leather gets wet it dries to a stiff un-useable board and has to have some treatment to bring it back to life. What would you recomend for this application? The Hide Care product does not list any ingredients at all. I agree with Jhonny Peppers that I have treated leather for years and have observed no deteriazation or crumbling on good solid leather. Crumbly leather to start out with and I hesitate to treat it at all for fear of softening the piece and causing further damage. There is a difference between leather that has it's surface skin intact and leather that is cracked and split. Any ideas on this subject are welcome to me but I am not sure your do nothing approach is the best one for many collectors. That being said I want to agree that one must be careful about what to apply and how much. Storage is another issue and has been discussed by many knowledgable Forum Members here. It is important to pay attention to storage conditions for proper conservation. Thanks all for your input. Jerry Burney


The

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

David, that is what I have always heard. If it is a good leather artifact then leave it alone. If it is a shabby thing with little value then it is OK to try to 'pretty' it up and 'feed and caress' it since it does not have much value to lose. I think that the reason there are any minty specimens of Lugers and holsters is that people didn't fuss so much with them in the past (they survived their owners attentions). In other words, we as collectors can be our own worst enemies.

Know HOW it works and then decide.
 

Thanks for the comments, JB. I never stated "do nothing" and that is where I would like everyone to begin reexamining their thinking. I suggest at least four specific things to be done to preserve (preserve, not alter) the condition, and of course value, of an old leather artifact. You mention some leather that has been water damaged. You might not want to preserve that as is but applying a chemical treatment may or may not have a positive effect. In general, water or other things that dry/stiffen a holster has removed some material or property of the tanned leather. Hence, the fibers have high degree of contact cross-fiber. Oils or other petroleum-based products primarily do two things if you read all the marketing claims about the products. First, they soften the leather (make "supple", plyable, etc.). This is accomplished by putting the fibers in an organic solvent that dissolves some of the cross-fiber attachments. Collagen is the principle protein in leather fiber and a solvent severs some of the cross-fiber attachments plus reduces the molecular attraction cross-fibers enabling fibers to once again slide along each other. Hence the flexibility. This enables leather shaping and movement. If you don't need to do this, the treatment is not appropriate. For slings and other misshapen items, it may be useful.


The second use of the petroleum-based treatments is water resistance. Because water and oil are not miscible, the water does not penetrate the leather easily. This is helpful for shoes and coats that are in active use in the rain. This is a weak benefit because leather is highly pourous and it takes a high boiling point (grease or wax like Pecards) product to have much effect. It is not helpful for antique items in a dry indoor environment.


There is a third and cosmetic benefit that is often mentioned but is an indirect side-effect. Petroleum products on leather will make them shiny. This is the same optical effect achieved when lubing a luger's metal surfaces. Unfortunately, with this comes darkening of the leather.


I appreciate your comments JB and have studied the leather product contents for some time to arrive at these conclusions. I do not want to suggest a "do nothing" approach, though. I am concerned that some people can not leave something alone and end up damaging an item that was fine to begin with. Although we should demand that we know what is in a product before we use it on a valuable and prized part of our collection, at the very least we can follow the first rule of conservation:


DO NOTHING YOU CAN NOT REVERSE


Thanks,

Dave

Re:NOOOOOOOO.......NEVER!!!
 

The jar states Lanolin waxy cream containing white spirit. Safety precautions. Store at room temperature. Keep container tightly closed. Keep out of reach of chrildren. Non-Hazardous mixture. Do not induce vomiting if swallowed. Keep ar rest and call physician. "CONNOLLY HIDE CARE" Made for preserving Connoly Hide Upholstery, Leather goods and Clothing. Made in England

Re: Neatsfoot oil for Holster?
 

Bill, that is a great comment. Leather that is far gone, unless associated with some special person or historical event, won't suffer a lot of value loss by tinkering. What is damaging is the tinkering collectors do to high condition specimens, sometimes mint specimens. Perhaps 1/2 of the holsters I see are damaged by attempts to "improve" the holster. In the past two months, I have see two US M1916 holsters that were absolutely flat mint except for a wide streak of oily dark leather across the flap. The oily streak was an attempt to stop/restore the cracking by applying Pecards or oil. One holster was cracking through and leather would fall off if you picked up the holster. The other was recently oiled and not yet crumbling. Both holsters could have been preserved in mint condition by simply storing them with the flap wide open (not folded and buttoned shut).


To the person who took his holster to a shop and had it oiled up, sure it looked pretty outside. Did you look inside and note the dark oily inside leather surface? Not pretty at all and a giveaway to experienced collectors. That holster will crack and rot much faster than if it was properly cared for.


It is best to avoid the urge to improve everything until you know what you are doing. Also be choosy about whose advice you take. Many collectors listen to the old sages at gun shows and do rediculous things to their collections. I watched a guy at a show rub the finish off a 1910 DWM with TS grip strap markings because an old goof at the show told him a razor blade was how to remove surface rust. He removed the rust, the blue and some of the surface, too. I can't think of a place more soaked in BS than a gun show--before risking a one-of-a-kind piece of history, check the credentials of your information sources regarding care of the item.


Thanks to everyone for a great set of questions and comments. Holsters, and historic preservation generally, are things about which I have passionate opinions and have devoted a lot of time to studying. It is a lot of fun and I encourage others to join in.


Dave

Opinions
 

And when we are all of the same opinion that Ford makes the best car, McDonalds the best hamburger, and that Bill Clinton was the best President ever, we will all be using the same thing on our collectible leather.

Bill Clinton liked Mustangs too. (EOM)