Advice on 1st Luger
 

This is my inaugural post, although I’ve been lurking for over a year. I’ve now reached the point where I must expose my lack of knowledge and ask for your opinions and advice. It’s my “what should be my first Luger” question. I’ve learned from this forum that it’s a good idea to own a “shooter” pistol before getting into the collectibles. With that in mind, and after spending too many hours looking at Luger descriptions on the Simpson site. I’m looking at two possible candidates for a fist Luger.

Number one is a classified as a good looking shooter grade DWM 1908 commercial ($1195):

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=27979


The second is an unfired Interarms American Eagle (Mauser) ($1895):

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=31735


It’s probably obvious that I must have a need for a good looking range pistol . . . :)

Your comments on these Lugers, their quality, other alternatives, etc, are appreciated.

I'd say go with the 1908....that way you wont have that little nagging voice in the back of your head saying "pssst.. it's not a REAL Luger" :evilgrin:

Seriously though, you'll have a 100 year old pistol with a lot of history behind it that you can still shoot...that's pretty cool.

A shooter is good no matter what - but I always try to steer someone towards what 'era' they really like. WW1, commercial, Weimar, Nazi era and buy one from that time period. of course a 1970's mauser is a great shooter :)

But a 1908 is cool too ---

I definitly go with the 1908. They were the first 9mm luger. I own one and they are classy, well built and very cool even as a mismatch~ One caveat, before go the the range have some one knowlegable with lugers and their workings check to see if its safe for you and the others at your range!!! ~Eric

Hi Bill,

Welcome to posting on the forum...

I'm not so quick to make a decision for you about which pistol you might be happier with--kind of agree with Ed about acquiring within your genre of interest.

Simpson's is a reputable dealer, they apparently stand by what they sell. For this security, however, you will pay a little extra--but it can be worth it.

The 70s Mauser is one of the more desirable/scarce of those produced at that time. Fewer examples with '06 style frames than the other--Swiss style. Personally, these are more handsome. Sounds like basically a new pistol here, you get to break it in! Though manufacturing techniques for these deviate somewhat from the 'originals", they have a reputation for being generally well and fairly faithfully made, and are strong, durable shooters. This one is very nice and has the attractive, properly strawed parts.

The DWM is also charming and desirable (9mm). There is more of a statistical risk of breaking a part with the older guns, but not so great a consequence with a shooter. The early commercials are known for their great finishes and workmanship.

This is likely not news to you, since you've been reading the forum for a year, but I just wanted to add my $.02 worth. This would be a tough decision for me to make (love 'em all!) because the early one costs less--but the later one is all crisp and minty. If price were not an issue, I might flip a coin; or I might buy both! The latter might actually be a good idea because Lugers overall keep appreciating in value.

If you're good right now with either, wait for the opinions and observations by the members to all come in, and there might be something in the discussion that will make your decision easier.

Hi,

If the Interarms were in 9mm, I'd be tempted to buy it, but it's in .30 Luger, and ammo is difficult to find.

Also, the price of the Interarms is a bit high.

For a reblued and mismatched shooter, the 1908 is also too high for me.

I'd suggest you keep looking and buy a collector grade Luger as an investment for the future. Yes, you can still shoot a nice Luger, if you watch out for the hot stuff. Frankly, its best to reload, if you are a reloader.


Sieger

Thanks for the quick responses. ithacaartist, I'll take your advice and wait for more responses to arrive. Also, at this point I have no era in mind. Are the earlier Lugers (similar to the Walther PP) the better quality?

A question. What is the difference between the .08 frame and the Swiss frame, and why is one possibly more desirable than the other?

The early commercials are more akin to fine jewelry. Military examples can show a few tooling marks, here and there. Commercials had to be pretty.

I agree with Sieger about the prices, but that's Simpson's. Different areas of the country seem to command different prices for Lugers, and for some Simpson's may be at relative par, or thereabouts, compared to local offerings, if any.

Your best bet--once you decide what you're after--is to pounce upon an offering in our WTS section. As someone posted not too long ago, this way the wheat is already sorted out from the chaff. Also, post your wishes in the WTB.

I believe they are referring to the grip frame - the 'Swiss style' straight front strap vs the little bulge at the bottom.

Early commercials [1900AE for example] have much closer tolerances. They were not intended for trench warfare [yet] so they could be hand fitted and tool marks eliminated. Better blue, better wood, etc.

I have bought from Simpson's and if they have what you want, they will work with you. IIRC, either Bob or Brad is a member here. (Maybe both). ;)

Gunbroker.com is a hunting ground that I peruse daily. But as is pointed out here, you have to beware...But you can score a decent shooter if you look closely... :)

I think that both guns under consideration are priced too high. On Gunbroker.com I notice that individual owners don't really know the prices so they tend to be over or under priced. Get a feel for which is which and then make your move.
I agree on items for sale on this site but you have to check the items offered often - as they seem to be gone, in a hurry.
thanks
Jack

Bill,

Military accepted Lugers that are as close to the original condition they were shipped from the factory are generally the most highly valued to collectors. There are specific commercial Lugers that are also highly valued. Some are quite common. Import marks, refinishing and replacement of original parts generally eliminates collector interest.

Between numerous variations, some are more rare and thus more highly valued than others.

There are exceptions... There are some variations in Russian Capture and East German Volkspolizei reworked Lugers that are starting to become considered collectible. Generally Swiss Lugers that have been rebuilt through normal armory maintenance programs are considered collectible.

You should think about what you're interested in. A specific era of history? High precision technology? Shooting? Understanding these things will help you make a good choice as Lugers within your interest become available.

Do you have a specific area of interest? "All of the above" will probably not help you narrow it down...

Note that there are many, many variations and choices available. This, naturally, offers many points to make decisions. Markings on rare Lugers are regularly faked to increase their value, so focusing on very rare and expensive Lugers can be quite risky, especially if you haven't studied them well enough to recognize fakery.

A run of the mill mismatched shooter Luger should run $800-$1000. Mid quality matching original finish military accepted Lugers generally start at $1350 to $1500.

The books that collectors use to reference variations may seem expensive, but they are inexpensive when they help you avoid a very costly collecting mistake (say, by identifying a fake, or helping you understand rarity of a varistion).

Bill,

First of all welcome to this forum.
I've not read all the posts, still if what you want is to start with a "shooter" (right choice) and you want to use it at the range, if I were you , I would choose a late production, non matching Luger, say 1941/1942 as I believe that one century old Lugers should never be fired with modern high speed high power ammunitions, as with the time they may have become somehow structurally unsound. IMHO.

Safe shooting.

Sergio

". . . one century old Lugers should never be fired with modern high speed high power ammunitions, as with the time they may have become somehow structurally unsound. -- Sergio"

Thanks -- that's something I had not considered. Certainly makes sense.

As I expected from this group, the replies coming in are all thoughtful and professional. I just need to review them more than once. Lugers are just more complicated than I ever expected :confused:

I was told this is the only ammo safe to use! Before you shoot make sure you have some one competent to inspect it to assure its safe to fire!! ~Eric

Bill,
I would buy neither.Slow down.Buy some good books by Still and/or Hallock.
See what era you like best and go from there.
Bob

Bob, I'm in the Bay Area. Any suggestions on local gun stores that might have an inventory of Lugers?

Hi Bill,
Please private email your phone number and I will give you a call.
Spartacus38@charter.net
Bob

Bob,

I've not posted enough to have that board "privilege." :) I'll send an Email.

SailorBill,

There is a beautiful Interarms Swiss, six incher, in 9mm, on Simpsons' website for $1295.00

Grab it!


Sieger

Bill, I doubt that you find any shops still open in "The City", but you should find some lugers in the shops in San Bruno or San Mateo. TH

Yes it is! I was considering it, but got distracted by the .08 v. Swiss frame thing, that I did really not understand. Price is right!

Hi,

On gunbroker.com, as new, Interarms, in the box with all accessories, P-08 Frame, 7.65mm, six incher, for sale at no reserve!!! Buy now price is $1,600.00, current bid is $455.00

Auction # 414551634.

Don't delay!!!


Sieger

Best of the Interarms Lugers! :thumbup:

6" barrel, grip nub, boxed, 9mm...

Only question I can think of is, BIN or gamble??? :rolleyes:

Bill, the Swiss modified the grip frame design for pistols manufactured in Bern in a successful attempt to reduce production time and costs. (Even after tightening up procedures, the Parabellum was still expensive and time-consuming to make!)

The difference is aesthetic and makes no difference to the performance of the gun. I think the Swiss-design is a little ugly and departs from the iconic look of the German mfd. ones. I didn't mean to over-sensitize you to the issue, which is only in the eye of the beholder.

I think even the BIN is within reason, for this one. I notice, however, that the caliber on the box says "30". The barrel style is classic .30 Luger. You'll have the same thing as me, '06 configured AE, 6" in 7.65. I had to create mine by changing barrels, but it is my favorite shooter now. If you reload, or can put up with sporadic availability/price of ammo, I don't think you'll be disappointed with something like this.

Thanks for the tip! The one on Gunbroker is similar to one on Simpson for $1795

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=31787

And the Simpson one makes the one on Gunbroker appear to be a relative bargain even at the "buy now" price.

OK - With either one I would be shooting Luger .30, which was pointed out as being expensive ammunition. The one on Gunbroker, however, really looks good . . . Darn it. At least I have a couple more days to think about it. (Actually, it will be next Monday. It's Mother's Day weekend and we leave tomorrow morning to visit our daughter in Mt Shasta. BTW - They get black bears in their backyard!)

Ammunition
 

Is there a thread on preferred ammunition manufacturers for Lugers? And one on reloading?

Use This
 

Readily available~Eric

How about .30 Luger?

Hi,

If it were me, I'd by a 9mm, as you can get ammo and reloading components readily (in normal times, that is).

Sieger

30 Luger/7.65 Parabellum is only 'expensive' if you buy Winchester. Fiocchi 30 Luger is the same as 9mm, dollar-wise. Midway has it periodically. IF the ammunition prohibition ever ends, they show it at $22.69/50...It's in stock now, but that will likely change before the end of the day... :rolleyes:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby...ensionid=10075

Thanks sheepherder, I ordered 4 boxes . . .:thumbup:

Ummmm??? It's exactly something I would do (and have done), but why are you buying ammunition before you buy a Luger??? :confused: :D

30 Luger (also called 7.65 Parabellum) ammunition manufacturers are somewhat scarce these days. Fiocchi seems to be the most common, Winchester the most expensive. Anything labeled 'Target' is desirable; +P or NATO is too powerful (as a rough guide). Reloading is quite popular; RCBS makes an inexpensive 'kit' for newcomers to the art. FWIW, there's a thread on this Forum on making 30 Luger brass out of .223 Remington [rifle] cartridge cases, which may be useful. As for basic reloading 'tutorials', I don't know of any offhand (I reloaded before there was an Internet) but I'm sure there must be...There's dozens for everything else... :rolleyes:

Well, Getting the cart before the horse, is one of my more common faults. However, in five days, an auction ends for a .30 Luger listed on Gun Broker and I'm hoping to be the winning bidder. :)

My son reloads, so I'll be making him a present of any needed Luger .30 dies, or whatever. Thanks for the information.

The Interarms version is a nice pistol, but I find that gun's version of the grip safety makes the gun feel much wider and bulky in my hand. I prefer the older models without the grip safety.

Hi,

I agree but for another reason. If you look at the Interarms' grips they are square at the edges and not tapered down to fit the human hand like the originals were.

Also, for me, the grip safety spring in the Interarms models is too strong, making you feel like you have to grip the pistol too strongly to get it to shoot.

Both of these obvious "redesign" flaws are easily cured, though.


Sieger

Good luck with the auction......hope you get your first Luger. BEWARE, they can and are, addicting!!

I always thought the new grip safety that attached to both sides of the frame was the problem. How is that cured?

I don't think the new grip safety is necessarily a "problem". Like other features of the '29 Swiss it isn't particularly attractive, but it is functional. It does not attach to both sides of the frame, it is just attached on one side like all of the other grip safeties, but the exterior portion wraps completely around the rear grip strap so that both grips need to be relieved to accommodate it. The wrap-around design supposedly was to preclude objects from getting under the grip safety thereby preventing it from being depressed and thus rendering the firearm non-operative. Basically it was a solution developed for a problem that, for all practical purposes, did not exist. :)