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-   -   G Date with DWM toggle - need help (https://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=32085)

sthomp 01-30-2014 07:55 PM

G Date with DWM toggle - need help
 
10 Attachment(s)
I recently picked up this G Date 1936 Luger...probably my only chance to own one. It is a combination of anomolies, but the price was right and it came with an original A. Fischer 1941 dated holster (which will look good wrapped around my BYF41 Black Widow).
1. The Toggle is DWM, BUT has the correct s/n. Checking the literature...Still, Third Reich Lugers, p.27, note at the bottom of the page..."two G Date Lugers with DWM Toggle are reported" and he references Harry Jones in Luger Variations p.193 as showing a picture of one. So, what are the odds that this DWM Toggle is original to this gun?
2. The mag looks to me to be absolutely correct, original and matching.
3. I cannot decipher the s/n suffix under the barrel.
4. Several of the small parts are mis-match...could they still be original to the gun?
5. There is an import mark and "germany" hidden up under the frame above the trigger on the right side.
6. Looks like an old refinish...if done since import why wouldn't they have removed the import mark? (legal issue?)
7. The grips have a "repro" look to them, however the last two of the s/n is stamped on the backs and they fit like a glove.
This one may turn out to be a kind of "orphan", but it's sure pretty (and you know how I fall for the pretty ones...the 1912 Erfurt...oh yea, and my wife!)
So here's some pictures to hopefully shine some light on it.
I appreciate any and all comments...Steve

DavidJayUden 01-30-2014 09:09 PM

Boy, I see things that concern me but I'm no G date guy. At the risk of erroring, I would comment that the mag. is a number re-stamp, and I agree that the grips look suspect. If they are numbered correctly inside, then that suggests something a bit more troubling. I'd like to see better photos of that front suffix and the surrounding area, as it looks a bit odd in the photos.
Not sure if the G date guns should have the Mauser hump.
Lets hear from the other guys...
dju

Edward Tinker 01-30-2014 09:11 PM

It looks restored to me, but many times pictures can be deceiving...

A K date would be closer to first production, a G date is 10-15 thousand in?

The magazine looks funny to me, but you said it looks good. Maybe shined up?

sthomp 01-30-2014 11:03 PM

David and Ed...I've looked closer at the bottom of the mag and there very well could be a grind and re-stamp. I was swayed by the other markings. the tube is bright...looks like stainless...in any event I'm going to see GT next week and he will figure the mag out.
Yes, it was refinished, but it looks fairly old but now that I look closer, the re-finish is clearly after the import stamp...which is "VEGA SAC CA 9MM" with "germany" also.
I'll take some new pics tomorrow in better light and post them.
This was only represented as a shooter, not a collectable...my investment is $1095 delivered with holster and unmarked tool.

sheepherder 01-31-2014 09:22 AM

Not a bad price IMO...I would have inspected the G more closely...It's been filled in with some kind of whitener, but I notice it has no halo...I don't know enough about G/K dates to know if that is significant or not...But the corners are nice and square, not rounded like an etching or electro-pencil would be......It's a nice G... :)

Sergio Natali 01-31-2014 09:45 AM

Steve,

In this forum there are plenty of people more expert than me, but let me say that it is a very nice looking Luger, probably restored, and with new grips, still if you paid what you considered a "right price" it's ok, and if you want to use it as a shooter... safe shooting.

Congratulations in any case for your purchase.

John Sabato 01-31-2014 09:46 AM

Refinished or not, it is a nice shooter, with nice accessories, for a reasonable price in today's market IMHO.

Renumbered? I would have to study it much closer to give an opinion on that...

wlyon 01-31-2014 10:33 AM

Believer the mag was originally for a K date. Bill

sthomp 01-31-2014 11:33 AM

10 Attachment(s)
Many thanks to all responders...based on your comments and my hitting the books, I believe the picture is clearing.
A true G Date should be in the range 930a to 5000 f. Looking at the picture of the mark on the front of the frame (see new pics below), it looks to me like someone tried to change/obliterate whatever suffix was there...not good news.
However, the G over the chamber looks OK to me, but the comment about halo could be telling.
Bill, yes, I came to the same conclusion about the mag after looking at Costanzo and Still...looks to be a K Date mag...the box/37 specifically K Date only. I can't explain the Scriptic S in two places. Also looking at the closeups (below) of the center s/n section of the base looks "messed with" as in grinding marks. Also, I think it's bright Nickle plated, not stainless.
I've added pics of the grips and I think they speak for themselves...I've not seen s/n stamps like that before (large), but have only seen maybe a dozen.
So, the bottom line in my mind is pretty much what you guys came up with...a nice looking mis-matched shooter with an interesting story which we will probably never know.
I think we can seal this case and again, thank you all for your comments...great bunch of guys! Steve

klaus 3338 01-31-2014 12:13 PM

G- date grips are usually not numbered.
The acceptance of the clip is a fake.
The numbers on the frame seems not correct- they should be the same as on the barrel.
The frame has another color than the rest of the gun and so on...

danielsand 01-31-2014 12:35 PM

VERY pretty, and servicable pistol, regardless. Some interesting history behind all the parts. Grips are obviously new. But I would still like to have it!

DavidJayUden 01-31-2014 01:10 PM

Regardless, you will have the only one like it at the shooting range. Enjoy!
dju

sthomp 01-31-2014 01:17 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Klaus...yes, not much question about the grips...and the fakery of the mag. However, the numbers on the frame and barrel do match...both 6616. The problem is no suffix that is readable. Also, I don't detect any color difference between the barrel, receiver and frame. It has clearly been refinished and the barrel/receiver would certainly have been done together...not much chance of color difference.
Here's some new info: the tool that came in the pouch of the A. Fischer 1941 holster is marked "byf41" on the little vertical tab at the big end. I can't find any reference (STILL, Gortz & Sturgess etc) that document this kind of tool marking...is this yet another "boost"? (see pics below)

mrerick 01-31-2014 04:05 PM

Sorry, never seen a tool marked in that way with that font in that location...

Marc

sthomp 01-31-2014 04:14 PM

Klaus...sorry, I mis-understood about the color match...frame vs. all the rest. So the barrel/receiver is not at issue...got it this time. If you look real hard and close in hand, there may be a slight difference, but until you pointed it out I would not have picked it up.

sthomp 01-31-2014 04:25 PM

Marc...yes, pretty strange. I didn't even think to look at that location and assumed it was a commercial un-marked. It was only by accident that I finally saw the stamp.
All in all, this is one mixed up confused little puppy. But it sure has been fun trying to figure out what has been done to it and what is real and what is fake...probably be working on that for some time. Steve

DavidJayUden 01-31-2014 04:38 PM

I vote that tool to be highly suspect. Laughably suspect, actually.
Also, would one of you G date owners compare that G to yours? Is it the correct font AND location?
The problem is that once you find something that has been boosted, like the grips for example, then absolutely everything else becomes suspicious. And since it ended up selling at a reasonable shooter price, why all the skullduggery?
dju

sthomp 01-31-2014 05:32 PM

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David...here's a G Date (not mine) that is currently listed on GunBroker (for $3,400 start). It has a very good picture of the "G". To my eye it looks very similar to mine.

Edward Tinker 01-31-2014 06:33 PM

that tool marking is a sure sign it is either faked or has fake markings

but its a repro tool IMO

sheepherder 01-31-2014 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sthomp (Post 249020)
Klaus...yes, not much question about the grips...and the fakery of the mag. However, the numbers on the frame and barrel do match...both 6616.

I think Klaus is pointing out that the font & style are subtly different...

But the price was right (again, IMO) and it is a handsome Luger... :thumbup:

sthomp 01-31-2014 09:21 PM

6 Attachment(s)
sheepherder...Good point, I missed that subtlety. Yes, now that I look at it from that standpoint, there is a different font...actually looks like they used 9s upside down for the 6s under the barrel.
The more we see of this pistol, the more questions arise. It looks like it was "built up" from any number of unrelated parts. I guess there is enough G Date to it to call it a G Date mis-match. Given the fairly nice holster, I think it's safe to say I'm in to the pistol at under $1K ($1095 total with holster and tool delivered). Here's a couple of pics of the holster. I'll run it by Jerry Burney for his comments, but I think it's safe to evaluate it at $150. It's a 1941 dated A. Fischer hardshell.

ithacaartist 02-01-2014 01:18 AM

I looked at the pics again, and the one of the front of the frame under the barrel makes me wonder... Notice how the upper seems to protrude just slightly proud of the frame? Notice also the irregularity of the curved surface related? Could this frame have been re-numbered?

mrerick 02-01-2014 09:17 AM

G Date Receiver Photo
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is my refinished "G" date receiver... This picture shows the letter without any fillers.

And David's observation looks accurate to me. The front of the frame looks ground back, renumbered and refinished.

DavidJayUden 02-01-2014 09:18 AM

Good point, David. The way the forward curve comes up unevenly, and the tool marks have bothered me too. The upper to lower fit may suggest that the lower has been shaved.
But then again I suppose that we have killed this horse pretty dead by now. It is still an interesting shooter at a good price.
dju

ithacaartist 02-01-2014 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden (Post 249063)
But then again I suppose that we have killed this horse pretty dead by now. It is still an interesting shooter at a good price.
dju

When posting, I had the feeling that I was giving that horse one last nudge with my toe. And the story ends happily, nonetheless!

sthomp 02-01-2014 10:47 AM

ithacaartist...yes, I see the step from receiver to frame...about a fingernail thickness. Plus what looks like brush or wire wheel marks on the rounded area in front of the take down lever, suggesting serious re-work. All in all, I think we can put a fork in this one and close with David's line..."I suppose that we have killed this horse pretty dead by now. It is still an interesting shooter at a good price."
Many thanks to all for your interest and comments...extremely helpful. Steve

mrerick 02-01-2014 11:10 AM

Steve,

Your photos are so well done, and there are so many interesting things about this Luger, that I think this should qualify as a "sticky"...

It amazes me when I consider the effort that went into this Luger, and the number of very subtle things that can be observed about it, the tool and the holster.

Clearly someone wanted to increase the rarity and value while they created a matching Luger, yet it was sold at shooter prices to you. With all that effort there was apparently no financial payback. Interesting, to say the least.

klaus 3338 02-01-2014 11:26 AM

Sorry but your holster is an Imperial holster: the year 1941 a the Nazi eagle are added later.
The tool is a fake and made in our days.
The number on the frame may be ok but it is not the correct a G- date frame that is made in 1935. The kind of number should be the same as on the barrel. Your Luger is a parts gun.
Regards from Germany.
Klaus

sthomp 02-01-2014 12:11 PM

Clearly someone wanted to increase the rarity and value while they created a matching Luger, yet it was sold at shooter prices to you. With all that effort there was apparently no financial payback. Interesting, to say the least.

mrerick...yes, I've been meaning to comment on this point, but keep forgetting. I think there is a good explanation...
I talked directly to the guy I bought it from to negotiate the sale. He was fairly candid about losing a "bunch" on it. Apparently he paid much more and only later found out some of what we now know. He was pretty square in his representation of it to me, therefore the "reasonable" price to me....although, I think he missed a few things, which are now coming out of the woodwork...thanks to you guys.
Yes, this has been a great learning experience...with minimal financial damage. Steve

sthomp 02-01-2014 05:03 PM

Klaus...I didn't recognize it, but you are correct. I just heard from Jerry B. and he said the same thing about the holster. Well, that fits with the story of the pistol and the tool...one giant scam! I appreciate your several comments...Steve

DavidJayUden 02-01-2014 06:30 PM

You mean to tell me that THEY EVEN BOOSTED THE HOLSTER!!!???
Is nothing sacred?
dju

DavidJayUden 02-01-2014 06:32 PM

And Sthomp, please don't feel that we are picking on you, but it's just rarely that we get so much to talk about on the same gun...
dju

sthomp 02-01-2014 11:23 PM

David...not at all...it's been a real eye-opener and I've really learned a lot in a very short time. I still plan to get together with GT next week for a post mortem...and let him scold me for being so gullible...I bought my first Luger with his guidance several years ago and generally he signs off on what I buy, P38 and P08. I'm lucky to have him living only a few miles away. But I went solo on this one.
I really don't think I'll take much of a bath on this...but life is like that...win some, lose some, and hopefully learn a lot.
OBTW, I found where that tool came from quite by accident. I was cruising the Luger related listings on Ebay and there it was...a listing for EXACTLY this tool..."byf41" marked on the tab...ten available for buy now of $8.95 ea...Steve

DavidJayUden 02-01-2014 11:44 PM

You did not get hurt on this one at all. And you know that if I saw this sitting on the shelf of the LGS I'd have been all over it too...
dju


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