Second luger - shooter...key holing issues
 

I posted a while back about another matching Luger I bought. The recommendation was not to shoot the gun as it was a piece of history, and not many matching guns are around any longer.
I took that to heart and have refused to shoot the other Luger, and have pursued finding a shooter. Here in California they don’t pop up that much, and some folks have a very biased idea of what an unmatched beater should be priced at….

When this one popped up I jumped on it. As its plated I understand it is not worth much, but it has many matching parts, and was represented to be in great working condition. I immediately went to the range and gave it a whirl having never shot any luger! The gun feeds and fires flawlessly, but alas the bullets tumble at 7 yards. I shot some WWB out of it, and some reloads. The rifling is worn, but it looks better than my P38 which shoots well enough.

Any ideas on how I can have my cake and eat it too? I find the action on the luger to be very smooth and comfortable to shoot, but I’d like to see round holes, not keyholes!!

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Any help would be greatly appreciated.

A few more pics…I will try to get a rifling shot posted tomorrow.

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How worn is the rifling? Are there any inconsistencies in it, like a ring partially down the barrel or nick damage at the muzzle? A squib improperly removed could leave significant damage.

Check to see how far a 9mm fmj bullet will fit down the muzzle. There should be a fair amount of space between where it stops and the cartridge case mouth ends.

If the barrel is shot out, it can be replaced.

Marc

The rifling appears very consistent, but not very pronounced. Its definitely worn, and has some alligator cracking, but not much pitting. I will try to get macro pics tomorrow posted.

A bullet cannot be inserted much farter into the muzzle than it drops into a new sig.

Perplexed for sure, this thing should shoot.

The cracking could be the plating wearing inconsistently. I don't know if that could be causing the problem.

keyholing is caused when the bullet fails to achieve dynamic flight and that is usually a number of things collectively. Is there any bulge in the barrel? Run your finger along the shaft to detect even a bump you can't see..
Like Mark says..check the muzzle diameter with a 9mm bullet. Does every bullet keyhole or only some? 7 yards and something is seriously out of whack..have you shot any at say 100-200 feet to see if bullets are striking the dirt feet or yards off?
Have you looked at the witness marks to see if they are aligned? Is the barrel tightly screwed in?
The lands and grooves are there to provide twist to stabalize flight..there might just not be enough.

I have seen nearly shot out barrels that could still launch an accurate round down range. I strongly suspect that the problem is not one of rifling but of the crown at the muzzle. A dent or out of round condition at the muzzle profoundly alters the exit dynamics of the bullet.

Now that you brought up the muzzle issue it does appear as if the plating is not perfect in that area, as in there is some extra material and high spots on the interior diameter. I'll try to get some shots.

As to barrel bulge..no visible bulges, nor any perceptible by touch either, and its the original barrel stamped 522, and than underneath that it says 383.

I am going to mic the muzzle to se if its concentric. I just had a 1911 have that exact issue.

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I believe that "keyholes" are often the result of unstable projectiles, but quite a wide number of factors can cause that instability. Most common is the incorrect twist or an injury to the muzzle. I've seen "keyholes" at the range in guns cleaned from the muzzle.
Also a small burr on the muzzle crown could make the bullets unstable in flight.
IMHO

I too suspect that the problem lies at the muzzle. Sometimes when guns are vigorously cleaned from the muzzle end with a steel rod we see accuracy suffer dramatically, like this. Check for wear (or other defects) near the muzzle, try diff. ammo. with different bullet weights, cast and jacketed. etc. Clean the barrel and shoot it until dirty.
Options iniclude re-barreling, or relining the existing barrel, a service offerred by the Broom Closet in Florida.
I suppose a guy could try counter-boring the muzzle a half-inch or so IF you have a lathe.
Or sell it off and pick up another.
dju

This may be a long shot, but worth mentioning. Was your target backed up with a firm backing like cardboard, etc.? If the target was made of thin paper, and without backup, it will tear instead of punch as a response of being struck by the bullet, and give one the appearance of keyholing. Just a thought.

I'm more of a rifle shooter, but if that was my pistol I'd give it a careful cleaning, make a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, and then I'd slug the bore. Now...after you fire your pistol, what do the fired cases look like?

Hi,

From what little I can see into your barrel, the rifling seems normal. If there is any inconsistency in the crown, due to platting materials, etc., this is where I'd start looking first.

Sieger

I gave the barrel a good scrubbing with a brass brush and some hoppes. I had taken the gun to the range right after picking it up at the store.

The WWB ammo worked great, same for some Bitter valley 9mm, and some Milwall Hollow points. My own reloads are still tumbling, and I suspect they are a bit hotter even though they are below minimum for red dot. I am using extreme plated bullets, and all the ammo that worked was FMJ except the HP's but they too had brass jackets.

I am going to down load some cases and try the extremes in some reloads to see if I can get my own reloads to work. I also will chrony my loads and the WWB loads, and try to find out the exact powder used in the WWB, but I would imagine its 231.

Thanks for the advice.

P.S. I was amazed at how light and crisp the Luger trigger is, and how well the gun handles recoil. Its also accurate, but I am not a great fan of the front sight post in low light you get at many indoor ranges.

We feel your pain. Remember that those front sights were intended for 18 year olds...A dab of florescent orange paint helps a bit.
Keep us posted on the tumbling issue. I'm currently using cast bullets or FMJ, never tried plated.
dju

A number of things come to mind. First, since the factory ammo works, I'd check the bullets you are re-loading with for weight and diameter. I have found that the re-loading info from Seiger's posts to be excellent. My guns all work with 5.4 to 5.6 gr. of IMR 4756. Very accurate.....Next , I'd slug the bore full length, then 1/2 inch into the breech and then again 1/2 inch into the muzzle and compare your findings. If the muzzle dia. is more than than the breech you have a barrel issue....As for sights, I use a fire optic sight for in door shooting. Brownells has these for Mausers as well as wider higher metalic Mauser sights the Fiber optics are the right height and the metalics can be filed down and reshaped to suite. (The dove tail is the same.) Good luck with your shooting and stay safe when reloading.

Did you mean to say that your loads are below MINIMUM load range for Red Dot, or below MAX load for Red Dot? If you are loading the below minimum loads, the bullets may not be stabilizing due to too low a velocity.

My loads with red dot were at Maximum (4.3 grains). I went to 4.1 grains and the tumbling was lessened, but not by much.

All factory ammo works, as do reloads with 124 grain Zero FMJ bullets. I just have issues now with extreme plated bullets.

I also am going to try a bit slower powder than the red dot, like 231 or tru-blu since I have that in stock. I also loaded up some zero fmjs with the red dot.

The gun has great accuracy except with the plated. The plated bullets mic out fine, I have to think it has something to do with the plating material versus the jacket materials or perhaps the speed of the red dot as the reloads I tested with were loaded with 231.

Time will tell, but its a great excuse to go to the range more often.

The 4.1 red dot load can barely cycle my 1911's in 9mm.

I struggled for a couple of years trying to load cast bullets in a load that would function Lugers correctly. Lots of set-backs and failures, and lots of trips back and forth to the range.
My point is to hang in there, try different loads and components, and when you find one that works, stick with it.
dju

David.

If you would search my name, I recently posted some highly accurate and most importantly, highly functional handloads, developed just for the 9mm Luger, on this site.

I've developed one lead bullet load that will shoot 6 to one ragged hole at 25 yards. Lead is accurate in a Luger, if you learn just a few basics!!!

If you would like to save some time and frustration with cast, just PM me and I'll be glad to share my experience with you.


Sieger

Hi,

Back in 1979, before I accidently discovered that medium burning rate powders are just the ticket for Lugers, and then verified this through my research of the original German texts, I loaded Red Dot quite successfully at 3.8 to 3.9 grains for the 124 grain bullets.

Generally, Lugers do not shoot accurately with hot loads. In fact, hot loads will eventually cause serious damage to a Luger.

My best two powders for FMJ bullets are Power Pistol and IMR's SR4756. For cast, Accurate #5 has accounted for some fantasticly accurate loads. Would you believe 6 out of 6 touching on a regular basis!?!

Plated bullets are typically "soft", so I would load them as if they were cast lead. By the way, there is no guaranty that these plated bullets will ever shoot well in your Luger, so if you don't have a large stock of them on hand, may be this is good!

Just some thoughts.


Sieger

I was reading on another forum that SR4756 along with a few other powders will be discontinued this year:(

There is fearful talk among trap shooters that some of our "special" powders are being dropped too.
dju

Hi,

I'm not surprised to hear that, as all of my favorite powders have always been "dropped or discontinued". Remember H-450?

The problem is that the industry has consolidated. Now there is one company that either owns or is distributing almost everything. This is not good for the shooting public, as perceived "duplicate" products are more often than not, dropped for financial reasons. I guess the attitude is "take it or leave it" rather the "replacement" product shoots worth a darn or not!!!

Very sad indeed.

What's to be dropped next, IMR 4895? After all, H 4895 has been around for years, hasn't it! Yea.


Sieger

You may have just discovered that your Luger does not like plated bullets!! Before I walked away from loading them for your luger(I am hardheaded), I would definitely try different powders.....I have had good luck with Unique and Power Pistol. Both are a medium burn powder.

I use Red Dot in some of my 30 Luger loads, and it performs very well for me. Bullseye does also. A different caliber in a different Luger. A lot of variables there.

Keep us informed as to your progress....I like to know what reloading components work for other Luger shooters. One can never have too much info on Lugers.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...odgdon-in-2014

This will effect those out there that have worked loads up using these powders for both Lugers and other firearms.

I did a test with 115 grain HP's and red dot, and the gun works great. Its now a matter of finding a powder to push the Xtreme plated bullets. I will use some of the data from this thread.

I'd like to get the xtremes to work as I have 10,000 of them (unloaded) on hand.

Thanks for the help.

Hi,

You might want to try my lightest target load for the Luger, that being 3.6 to 3.8 grains of Bullseye for both the 115 and 124 grain bullets. If this doesn't work, and you can't find a combination that will, you might consider selling your 10K of plated bullets to someone that can appreciate them.

Sieger

You know that there is nothing wrong with your Luger because of your result with the JHP bullets. That gives you a base line, and a standard. I would try the medium burners if the fast burners(Red Dot, Bullseye, etc.) give you dismal results. I have a fairly large amount of Xtreme plated bullets in different calibers, and am producing adequate/acceptable accuracy results with them. They do NOT like to be pushed too fast, as one can actually peel the plating off of the lead core. 11-1200FPS is the max velocity for them.

One great side benefit of buying the luger and having issues with it shooting plated bullets was the discovery that the loads I was shooting aren't accurate in any of my 9mm guns. I am about to start NRA bullseye shooting and its imperative the loads are accurate. While my STI Edge might not see tumbling bullets at 25 yards, it still won't shoot a 3" group with them from a rest.

So I did scale back the red dot, and will try a slower powder to give me better accuracy with the plated bullets.

Thank god for problems, they help us learn.

Be sure and keep us informed as to your progress. Most all of us on this forum enjoy learning new things and how problems were solved. Good luck.

I loaded up 50 rounds of 9mm with the same Xtreme 124 plated RN bullets and 5.8 grains of Ramshot True Blue powder. True Blue is very very fine and dense, and takes up less than half the cartridge case.

The rounds worked perfectly. The tumbling stopped. The load also worked great in my STI Edge, which requires stout loads to feed well.

True blue is a slowish pistol powder according to the charts.

Can anyone explain to me why a slower powder stopped the problem?

I can't be sure, but I wonder if the early burn rate could effect how the ogive curved surface of the bullet engages with the rifling. If the jump from the cartridge case through the chamber to the throat engagement of the rifling was unstable (the propulsion was not evenly flat against the bullet's back surface) that might do it...

Marc

Hi,

Though I've never tried True Blue, it appears to be a medium, slow/slow, slow powder on the powder burning rate chart I consulted.

Is your load accurate? If not, drop down several tenths and work up slowly until you see the groups tighten.

I'm glad your bullets seem to be responding positively to this powder.

You should probably forget about trying to figure out why this combination is working so well for you, as success with this combination has been a just reward for your efforts.


Sieger

I think I want to understand why a lower pressure upon firing fixed the issue. . I should also note the accuracy of the true blue load is good on the Luger, and it's also easier to shoot in the edge. Perhaps in a rest both the red dot and the true blue loads would be the same , perhaps not, but free hand I can shoot smaller groups with the true blue. Free hand may be subjective, and a function of an early recoil impulse.

But my guess is there is an issue with the bullet with the red dot, and it's deleterious effects in the Luger also might be carrying over into my other. 9mm pistols.

Underlying knowledge of problems casts light on all subsequent endeavors and prevents us from making the same errors twice. Also, this issue may have carry over issues for other and all loads which could lead to better accuracy for rifle too, and help me at the 1000 yard matches...although I think wind reading is probably more critical there.

I am very glad to hear that you have found a solution to your dilemma. I have never loaded with Ramshot True Blue powder, so can't comment on that. It is most definitely a slower burner than the Red Dot. If you are doing all of your accuracy evaluation on firing free handed,rather that bench rest/sandbags/Ransom rest, then I am not sure that you have proved all that can be proven. If this new powder is giving you a different/improved(to you) recoil impulse than the Red dot powder, perhaps that is conducive to better free hand accuracy. To test for true accuracy differences in loadings, one needs to remove all of the human factor possible.

Sounds as though you have made some real progress, and that is what makes handloading so special, at least to me.

I've been trying to make sense of you 9mm key-holing with a hot load, but shooting well with a lighter load. It could be that; #1 the main spring in your pistol is weaker than it should be. #2 the hotter load is causing the breach to open prematurely and so the pressure is dropping off too soon. Just a guess.

I think it has to do with the bullet getting distorted or canting in the worn barrel in the Luger, and when the powder is slowed down the bullet has a better chance of starting on the right track and engraving into the grooves better. But that's a guess too. I am trying to figure out how I can test a couple of theories to try to find out what is going on.

I know one thing, that this is not just isolated to a luger and red dot, but all loads are affected somewhat by powder burn speeds and also plated bullets might be more susceptible to distortion than plated...but again, that too is a theory and needs to be tested.

I like some of the testing methodology in the book Rifle Accuracy, and how he exaggerates certain issues to prove his theories. the guy really debunks a lot of reloading dogma rather quickly.

Hi,

1) The main spring isn't activated, to any real extent, until the bullet actually exits the barrel. The toggle remains firmly in battery until then.

2) Same answer as 1) above

Perhaps a mechanical explanation would be, simply a overly soft bullet combined with an overly hot load that is severly over running the rifling twist.

This is my best explanation. .

What has been your experience here?

Sieger