First post/First Luger/First problem
 

Hi guys. I joined here because I am having a problem, at least I think it's a problem, with my first P.08.
I bought a 1942 Mauser made Luger at an online vendor yesterday. Took possession today. All matching, beautiful pistol. I have never handled one before, but (uh-oh) watched a few youtube vids :o The problem: I can't seem to **** it.

I have tried everything except loading it and trying to **** it. I've tried: safety off, safety on, mag in, mag out. Nothing I seem to do will actually **** the pistol. And I've found some vids and threads on de-cocking for storeage and not dry firing it, so I'm thinking something is wrong here and it's not some kind of safety thing. Right now it would be impossible for me to dry fire it.

Could there be something I am doing wrong?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Welcome aboard

Can you post some pics ? it would help to determine if your takedown lever is messed up or your safety is jammed ( or the toggle needs lubed etc. ). left , right and top should suffice

Hi Fred, I interpret your post to mean that when you open the action with an empty magazine inserted, the toggle train doesn't lock in the open position. If this is the problem then it's either a broken or missing hold-open or, more likely, a defective magazine. I would try to borrow another magazine and check it out.
Regards, Norm

I would guess the problem has to do with the sear bar not engaging the firing pin when the toggles are pulled back. Also, check to see if the plunger on the end of the sear bar moves freely in and out.

Tom

Thanks for the welcome and fast replies.

Let me explain better. If the magazine is inserted I can pull back the toggle and it locks in place. I can't release it unless I drop the mag out an inch or so, But when I do get it released the trigger does nothing. The gun is not cocked.
I guess my questions could start with: Should I be able to release the toggle somehow with the magazine in place? Being a 1911 guy I am used to the slide release, or takedown lever.
That's why I said I was trying it different ways and with the safety in different positions, but simply can't get the pistol in a state where I could dry fire it no matter what i do.

Let me see if it's still on the site. That will give you lots of pics without me having to figure out if I need to upload to photobucket to post pics here.
http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/b...n-recluse.html

And feel free to let me know if it was a fair price or not. I can take it, lol.

If I'm getting it right, it sounds like the actual striker is not staying back as the toggle comes forward, thus not being "cocked". Correct?
One word of warning, do not put live ammo into the gun as it could concievably fire once the toggle goes forward.
dju

The gun may very well be cocked, and you don't know it because the trigger lever has nothing to press on. Take off the sideplate and ensure the little spring loaded pin is projecting from the end of the sear bar. If it's stuck in flush, drip some penetrating oil in there and tap on it a bit.

Yes, David. That sounds right. The firing pin is not staying back when the toggle comes forward.
But like I said, I am new to these. I am not sure if I am supposed to be doing something differently. I do not understand the mechanics yet and don't know anybody that has a Luger to mentor me.

It would be nice to know how exactly to release the toggle when the firearm is empty/unloaded. Do you have to drop the mag? For all I know dropping the mag prevents the firing pin from being able to be locked in a firing position...

If I understood the mechanics, then I could better access what might be going on.

I'm pretty sure I watched enough vids to take the sideplate off. Thanks for the suggestion.
Not sure I know what to look for, but I guess I'll find out.

I was right. I didn't know what to look for.
I took the sideplate off and didn't see anything that looked like a spring loaded pin.

However, when I put the sideplate back on and worked the toggle (magazine out), I heard a click when I pulled the trigger. I could not replicate this.
So something cocked the pistol, but I'm not sure what I did differently.

OK. Probably user error.
What is the trigger pull on these?
The trigger appears to be bottomed out on the guard, but if I keep squeezing the heck out of it, it fires. Sometimes it takes less effort, but for the most part it takes a lot.
I'd put my trigger pull gauge on it, but I'm pretty sure it's higher than it measures.

The pin isn't in the sideplate......its at the end of the long narrow bar (sear) running along the side of the receiver. Did the click only happen once, or can you cycle the toggle and it clicks every time now?
If you carefully study the animation of the Luger firing cycle on the home page of this site, you may be able to figure out the function.

Ok.....now it sounds like the trigger lever (the pivoting part on the back side of the sideplate itself) may be the problem. If the trigger is pulled hard back against the guard before it fires, the lever may be bent or the end that contacts that pin may be damaged. I know, hard to diagnose online!

I understand your frustration, but given the holiday season it may be a day or 2 to get things correctly identified. All the smart guys have lives...Please be patient, don't bend anything, and enjoy the Luger without dry firing it.
We will get you on the road soon.
dju

ok, dumb guy will shut up!

I agree. Tough to diagnose online and Christmas is upon us.

I appreciate the help so far.
And I'll check out the homepage. I couldn't remember where I saw that animated Luger at and was just searching youtube for it. That may help.

I'm taking a closer look at things now.
The pivoting lever on the sideplate *looks* OK.
And here's a pic of how much I can pull the trigger, with pressure, and still not have it release the firing pin. Actually, I can't even squeeze it hard enough holding the pistol this way to make it fire. I need to take a full grip.
(cool, I didn''t need to upload to PB).

Here's a pic of the plate and trigger lever. Something looks amiss from the pics I found on the web. No number or eagle on mine except for that partial strike 06, 90 or something. But if you followed the link I posted you can see the outside is serialized to my pistol. Also no stamping on the lever itself. The pics I saw were stamped with something on the lever. This might have something to do with the year of mine though? Just like the mags changed and weren't numbered anymore, did the sideplates change?
Also, that pin doesn't look like it's resting in the channel fully. I don't think it will go in any further though. Not looking at the bend. And just to mention, the sideplate fits tightly. Nothing loose (now that I know what to Google for a problem).

Hopefully this will be useful info when the guys get back from holiday. And in case I need to get back to Legacy with something they should have known.

Here's what your sear should look like. The nub sticking out of the sear is the spring loaded pin. It should go in & out freely. The sear itself should 'rock' in & out freely as well.

It often needs cleaning. If you need step-by-step dis-assembly instructions from an NRA magazine I think I may have one. (Some instructions call the sear a 'trigger bar')... :rolleyes:

The luger toggle will stay back unless there are rounds in the gun - there is not a release like a 1911

The gun not clicking to fire could be several things. Tom at Legacy is very easy to work with. Sometimes the issue is the sideplate, sometimes something else.

Each 'type' of luger can be different, so you can't compare numbers on different eras or types of lugers :)

Ed

PS: no photobucket needed and pretty easy to post pictures here

Thanks Edward. Got the pics figured out :)
That makes it so much nicer than having to upload to PB and copy and paste.

Sheepherder, the nub on mine pushes in rather hard with my finger, but more easily with the leverage of the trigger. It feels like the spring is really stiff.
Is what you are calling the sear also called a "sear bar" on parts diagrams?

I'll try cleaning that area, but it still seems like the sear should release before the trigger gets that close to the frame.

And I found a forum that explained the numbers. It said my year the number should be one higher than the first two of the serial number, which it is (I guess that was a 60 I was seeing). All the pics I was seeing showed the number on the extended area that fits under the takedown lever, so maybe placement changed, too.

And Merry Christmas, guys.
Thanks for your help and thanks for that pic, Sheep.

It sounds like it is the plunger, as others have said. I had one that would fire once and then no more until about an hour later. The plunger was sticky and it took that long to re-set. A soak in gasoline fixed the problem.(I know, soaking in gas is not the safest thing but it works)

You can hopefully narrow down the problem by removing the cannon (the receiver, barrel and toggle assembly) from the frame. Do not remove the toggle. Pull the toggle up and all the way back and push it back into battery. This should insure that the firing pin is locked back and ready to be released. Press on the forward end of the sear bar near the spring loaded plunger on the front. The sear bar should rock around a central pivot pin and release the firing pin (striker). If it clicks, then the striker has released forward. If not, then the problem is in the sear/toggle area. If it does click and is repeatable, then the problem is probably in the trigger/side plate area, assuming that the sear plunger is free and smooth as mentioned by others above. If what I am saying is not clear, then others may expand or correct. Try it.

Neil, it is repeatable. There doesn't seem to be a problem in that aspect except like I mentioned, the spring seems really stiff. It does not push and release the firing pin as easily as I would have thought. I'm still going to clean it out and oil things. The gun is bone dry and extremely clean, too. I wouldn't doubt if it wa soaked and air hosed.

I'm gaining a better understanding of how it works, especially being able to do searches with the terms you guys are using. And that led me to this: If I push on the sideplate it fires with normal pressure on the trigger. So my problem must be in the sideplate or the sideplate lever. Like I mentioned, it is not loose, but something needs adjusted. Or perhaps the channel the sear bar must fit in is not allowing the plunger to stick out as far as it should.

Be very careful about "adjusting" things in the trigger linkage. These were precision manufactured and properly assembled and adjusted by the factory. If it is all matching, and nobody has fooled with it it should be adjusted properly.

Lubrication issues are more likely...

Ok, you gave the big clue in your last post......if you hold pressure in on the sideplate, it fires normally. Now attempt to fire the gun normally looking straight down from the top....do you see the sideplate push out slightly as you pull the trigger? I'm betting so...then your takedown lever isnt putting enough pressure on the tab of the sideplate to hold it firmly. The good news is thats easier to fix than a bad trigger lever. Not neccesarily suggesting you do it yourself, but if you search the old posts, there's advice on how its done.

Thanks, Nuken. I'll do a search.

I did take the sear bar, trigger bar or whatever it's called out. Same as before, everything was clean as a bean. I oiled everything up and put the pistol back together nad the trigger fired fine... then it didn't. Without sitting here and dry firing it two dozen times I was able to see that now sometimes it works fine and sometimes it doesn't. So oiling at least helped some.

I tried your test and cannot see the sideplate move, even the times it did not want to fire. Nor can I feel it move, but when I put pressure on the tab under the takedown lever it fired fine the one time, so I think you nailed it. Plus it is really worn in that area. There seems to have been a lot of friction between the tabe and takedown lever.
I'll bet this fixes it right up. Thanks for the advice.

Now... can I throw in a second problem?
Since I was sitting at my bench and somewhat detail stripping it, I looked for more serial numbers. Checked the firing pin out and that was numbered. That lead me to the grips. The one came off with a little finger pressure inside the magwell. The other came right off. There's a reason it fell off as soom as I took the screw out. It has a crack on the inside of it. Darn near through to the outside, but completely un-noticeable from the outside.
I'm not sure if I should leave it alone or repair it. I would hate for it to completely crack if I don't do anything. I guess it was a good thing it's not firing or the crack may have gone unnoticed until it was too late.
I'm thinking a little acra-glas would repair it so it doesn't keep cracking, but it's a Luger, not the forearm on a Mosin Nagant.

What is the general consensus on this?

Accra-Glass is the go-to for wood repair, however we have a forum member, Hugh, who is a wizzard with all sorts of Luger grip repairs. I suggest letting him make the repair.
But also you may wish to check with the seller first if you feel they should have noticed this.
dju

So I take it that it's OK then to repair the grips.
Thanks, dju.

I tried all manner of searches and could not come up with a thread for adding pressure to the side plate. The closest I came was a thread where you all suggested this fix, then the member took it to a smith anyway.
Can someone help me locate the thread that describes the fix?

Thanks

On the homepage for the forum: http://www.lugerforum.com/ there is a "see through" animation of the operation of the Luger pistol, courtesy of Gerard Henrotin, who is the author of many E-books on pistols, including several on the Luger.

For beginners, I strongly recommend you buy and download his book: "Luger Mechanical Features"... it only costs $7.95 and clearly illustrates the mechanical relationships of the trigger/sear/firing pin.

http://hlebooks.com/ebook/coverlu.jpg

You can find his books at this link: http://www.hlebooks.com/

IMHO, These are great books for new Luger owners, enthusiasts, and collectors.

BTW, Gerard is also a member here...

Merry Christmas!

My next post will attempt to diagnose your problem...

Make sure the gun is unloaded and remove the magazine.

Remove the sideplate from your Luger, and then reassemble the upper to the lower receiver and close the takedown lever.

Now with the sideplace removed, pull the toggle fully back and let it snap forward on its own inertia... Your pistol should now have the firing pin held back by the sear in the firing position.

You test this by applying pressure to the front of the sear in the same manner as the "L" shaped lever would apply pressure if the sideplate were attached. If you do this you should hear the unmistakeable CLICK of the firing pin dropping to the FIRED position.

If you can repeat this test, every time you pull the toggle fully back and let it go, and you can hear the firing pin drop, then the problem is not with the Luger, but with the sideplate.

If the firing pin does not drop for this test, even once, then the problem maybe partially, if not fully, with the parts installed on the upper receiver.

Please post the results of your testing here, and I will provide additional guidance based on your results.
:bigbye:

Thanks for the feedback, John.
I did a similar test earlier and the firing pin repeatedly dropped, or fired. The upper receiver was not on the frame though.
I just want to double-check if it makes a difference so I don't keep dry firing it without any snap caps. I thought we (you guys) had determined the problem was the sideplate was not exerting enough pressure. When I press on the sideplate and apply light pressure it also fires every time. And when I press on the sideplate tab underneath the takedown lever it fires.

So would that be a sideplate issue or the trigger lever?
dju

+1 on John's suggestion to obtain Gerard Henrotin's e-book. It will give you a firm foundation for understanding how all the systems work in concert, and will represent the best $7.95 you've ever spent! Highly recommended!

To check for looseness in the side plate, put 'er fully back together (firing pin, guide, spring optional). To eliminate the possibility of damage from dry firing, either get some snap caps, but in this test, the pistol doesn't even need to be cocked. Hold a finger at the front or back end of the plate with half the fingertip also resting on the frame. When flexing the trigger, it is possible to detect motion in the side plate that cannot necessarily be seen. You'll be able to feel if the relationship between the side plate and frame changes as tension is applied to the system. If the side plate is jumping around when the trigger is flexed, it's an easy fix to tweak the tang of the side plate to snug things up again. Once this possible issue is addressed, and if it still won't function, then attention turns to the lever in the side plate. These levers can be adjusted, but it's a little more involved--annealing the lever, adjusting it, then re-hardening it--usually left to someone with appropriate level of expertise.

We can type "cocked" in a post, but must modify "c0ck" for it to work around the site's software and appear in a post.

Okay, based on your last post, this is a sideplate interface with the upper receiver issue. Apparently the L-shaped lever is not performing it's job correctly. This may be the result of some previous owner working on the trigger pull by polishing one of the contact surfaces of the "L". If too much material has been polished off, then the lever can't supply a consistent push to the sear bar.

From your photo of the inside of the sideplate, it appears that the upper part of the "L" has not been messed with. As an experiment, I would suggest that you cut a small piece of durable tape, (like the shiney aluminum tape that is used to seal duct work ---no not cloth duct tape) and tape it to the top of the lower L surface so that it will increase the lever movement by the amount of the thickness of the tape. This will not be durable, but will provide more information on how to correct your problem.

With that piece of tape securely mounted, reassemble the gun and see if you have consistant firing pin drop. For the amount of testing, just use a fired cased with the old primer still installed... a snap cap may be overkill. Dry firing is not recommended as a frequent activity, but dropping the firing pin a few dozen times a year really shouldn't hurt anything.

If the addition of the tape on the lower part of the L proves to successfully allow dropping the firing pin, then at least we will know the source of your problem, and I can suggest a few possible long term remedies...

Thanks John!
I think I have some of that foil tape around here somewhere...
I'll report back after I test it.

And thanks for the additional info on dry firing.

You know, John, I was just at a gun show last weekend and it had come down to me picking up some knick knacks and I told myself, No, I never have a use for tweezers when I'm working on my guns... lol

So I got the foil tape in place and... problem solved. You nailed it.
So what is a more permanent fix, if there is one?

The permanent fix... you have to increase the top surface where you installed the tape.

How?

--Some have actually worked to bend a little more tightness in the L lever... but this is a hardened part and VERY subject to breakage... unless you are a machinist, I would not use this solution.

--Micro welding and the recontouring the surface where you put the tape so it works...(but this is an all matching gun, so I am not sure you will want to do that).

--buy a replacement lever (see member Lugerdoc and hope he has one for sale, or put a WTB post in that forum, and if anyone has one for sale, they will contact you.) Some fitting may be required. You can remove the lever by putting a flat screwdriver blade behind the dogleg in the pin that holds it and pop it outward to release it.

--You can create an L-shaped shim that fits in the slot in the trigger to reduce the space that the lever uses. I created one like that out of a thin aluminum soda can once when I didn't have the money for a new lever, and used that gun for years... just be mindful on disassembly that you don't lose your shim.

--You can even try a drop of metallized epoxy (J-B Weld?) on the lever where you put the tape, and when it is dry and hard, shape it to provide the trigger performance you are looking for...

beyond these suggestions, you can use your own imagination on solving this engineering problem... just avoid anything that permanently modifies the original parts if you care about future value... if you are creating a shooter... then you have no limits on modifications... just make it shoot.

Glad I could help.

I like that shim in the trigger slot idea.
On the other hand... I don't see any numbers on the lever either, so for all I know maybe it's not original to the pistol. I have a gunsmith/machinist buddy that might be able to tweak it...
And then again, for all I intend to shoot it (not much) maybe that tape will do the trick. That was certainly easy enough and won't fall out.

Thank you very much for your time and suggestions.

Great forum you folks have here. Very helpful members. As a neophyte to Lugers I can appreciate that. Especially with it being the holiday season.
Thanks guys.

That lever is an un-numbered part. So you can buy a spare or 2 and go wild...
dju