1917 Navy?
 

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Your comments, please...

Hi David, 1917 Navy #227 has been kicking around on the market for a while. As you've probably noticed, the stock lug has been ground!
Regards, Norm

The grips, takedown lever and sideplate are also not original to the gun.

td lever seems to have 27. is that not right?

how did you decide about side plate?

grips seem pretty new. agree.

The side-plate does not appear to be numbered (on it's bottom edge), but that may just be the photo. The grips are most likely replacements, as alanint has said, but the take-down lever looks original. However, there is another missing part. Anyone?
Regards, Norm

The loop for the lanyard looks like it is missing.
Paul

Give that man a cigar!
Best regards, Norm

David, I would eventually like to get one like this, nice shooter, but not above, say $1200?

ed

Ed, I think I may have lucked out--$860, shipped. Restored Lugers seem to do OK on the market, and providing that this one does not need much other than what's been mentioned, there seems to be room for restoring the stock lug and lanyard loop. But, for now, it's to shoot and enjoy as is.

Interesting, Norm... I don't recall any of its previous appearances, but my time actually playing the game is limited to the last several years. Do you have any recollection of previous sellers/asking prices/circumstances that pertain to it? I've found it at shooter price and am committed to it. It is what it is and even in its sorta butchered, non-collectable status< i expect to enjoy it. If the mag that accompanies it is real, I could offset the already relatively low price a little more by selling. But prob. not.

Stock lug replacement for $450 on GB.com.
dju

[Interesting, Norm... I don't recall any of its previous appearances, but my time actually playing the game is limited to the last several years. Do you have any recollection of previous sellers/asking prices/circumstances that pertain to it? I've found it at shooter price and am committed to it. It is what it is and even in its sorta butchered, non-collectable status< i expect to enjoy it. If the mag that accompanies it is real, I could offset the already relatively low price a little more by selling. But prob. not.[/QUOTE]

Hi David, 1917 Navy #227 first appeared on Gunbroker in May 2011, at which time it was discussed on Jan Still's forum (see link). More recently it was listed on Gun Auction in September of this year. If you bought it for $860.00 shipped you did very well indeed.
Regards, Norm
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...Lug-on-a-M1914

I would have paid that amount for that Navy. It is a shooter, and I am a shooter. If it turns out to be very nice after you have time to check it out, perhaps I would entertain putting things right with it.

Since it is dated on the receiver, shouldn't ALL numbers be in the military style? That's why I commented on both the side plate and TD lever. TD lever is numbered in the commercial style and if there is any number at all on the side plate, it is in the commercial style as well.

Imperial Navy Lugers dated 1916 and 1917 are numbered in the commercial style. See pages 124, 139 and 141 Central Powers Pistols.
Jan

David;

I'm jealous. I would love to have a shooter Navy and that sure looks handsome.

Gary

David,
I think you did a helluva deal, kinda of an early Christmas for you.
It's a Navy, if you know what I mean... :)
Douglas

When I encountered the listing for this, my jaw dropped and eyes popped. I never thought I'd be the owner of a real Navy, shooter or otherwise. And I definitely credit the fellow members on this forum with educating me enough to recognize a good deal when encountered. So thanks, all, for that and also the encouraging comments!

The seller is a little different from most I've dealt with. The pics in the listing did not show the missing lug or loop--just received one that is appropriate for this, this A.M. It is likely that the lister knew all about these issues and did not mention or depict them in the listing. I think the entire pic series is left over from a previous listing in that specific shots were not provided when requested, but more general ones that just sorta worked. And the name I've been given to send the M.O. to is a woman's, while the person propping up the gun appears to be a male in dire need of a pedicure. Interesting how many sellers take pics on their kitchen floor while they are barefoot.

I needed to tap my IRA to buy this, but could not resist adding it to my legacy. I already have a chunk of rear frame, provided by G.T. a couple of years ago, earmarked to use in restoration of the lug on my LP.08. The plan was to section out the damaged area on that frame and replace with intact structure from the donor frame chunk. So, It appears that I'll need another such frame segment to restore this one, as well, when the time and money come for it. And if anyone has an orphan lanyard loop, I could provide a home for it as well. I'm not sure if it will be an advantage in restoration, but the damage on the frame is less to this one, where only the lug structure was eliminated, contrasted with more extensive grinding on the LP.08, which flattened and thinned the entire area.

David Parker

I'm dead envious of your purchase

Congratulations David!

Sergio

David, I have both removed orig lanyard loops @$25 or new ones @$35. I also have the stock lug sections of the rear grip strap in the $25 to $50 range depending on length & condition. Tom

How did I already know that?:)

But hold on... Maybe y'all can put away the green (for envy) makeup for now. I've been alerted by another member that the same gun is listed at least two other places--one @ $860, one @ $2,700. Four different states are associated with the listings. Another Armslist listing with the same title has been flagged as a scam...
The seller is adamant about my sending payment with tracking? Never heard of that before, nor can I think of a practical advantage to it.

I'm confronting the seller with all of this; in addition, I will require an escrow arrangement even if I am satisfied with the response (unlikely). And you bet, I'll be reporting this everywhere possible. Any suggestions how to have more fun with this turkey?

I now presume this offering is a scam

Maybe have a nearby forum member go check it out in person? Or how about sending the funds directly to his FFL dealer? Does he have a seller history on an auction site that you can follow up on? Good luck and keep us posted.
dju

That's what I was thinking, but would have to figure out in which of 4 different states associated with the listings (s)he's actually located.:D

Well, I was ridin' real high for a while..enjoyed that. Maybe I'll have some more fun reporting him. In the meantine...bummer!:(

What the hey, George, salt in my wound! http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=31714

It's comforting to know there are real ones out there. Yours even has a stock lug and lanyard loop!

the best way to have fun with these turkeys is to keep them in the dark about how you knwo its a scam.....or they will just keep getting better. A visit to the address on the money order by the police may be a giggle. Near as I can figure he has the funds sent to a dead address wrong name , right address, then an accomplice mails him the funds....or He has access to the original address mail box.

As mentioned on other forums, have him take a photo of the item with your e-mail address written on a piece of paper placed on top of the item. If he can not do that, he does not actually have the item. Also, google his/her address, see if it is a vacant lot or run down apt building. Google the e-mail address and see if it is associated with any other scams. Ask if a friend who is law enforcement in their town can stop by and look at it for you. Any and all these are a good start. If it smells "fishy" hold on to your wallet. Don't feed the scammers. Insisting that the payment be sent with "tracking" is a red flag. But, if you are sure it is a scam, then it can be fun to play with them.

aw, come on. send yur money. cant you see the fellow needs money to get his nails done?

Dave;

If he is asking for payment WITH tracking that is in your best interest. You can co that with UPS/FedEx or even the USPS (certified letter etc. with sig required). That will prove that he received it. I suggest a Bank Draft for payment (in case he backs at the escrow) as he will have to provide identification to cash it (unless he deposits it in his account).
All in all that can be used as evidence that he received the payment and collected the money. Whatever you do, don't send payment by Western Union or a similar service.

Ah yes, Fun. What some card collectors do in cases of very expensive Magic cards is require a picture of the owner (seller) holding the card/sealed box of rare cards/whatever.

Gary

Its probably a SCAM
 

If it seems too good to be true...... It probably IS too good to be true. Scam. Scam. Scam. But, hey, its your money..... Check the Sturm boards for instructions on SCAMMERS. Good Luck!

The "advantage" to tracking is he knows when the delivery is going to be made to the "shill" address and he can park outside and wait for the mailman to come down the street and be standing at the address to receive the mail before the actual resident of that address gets their mail. He scoops the check/MO, and leaves. I'd wait all day and sit in a car for 700 bucks, no problem. Without "tracking" he won't know when it will show up, and the person who actually lives at the address will most likely end up with your funds. They won't know why they have your check/MO, and very well may be honest people.

That is interesting and have never thought of it. In card collecting we highly advocate tracking in both directions but I have not heard of this happening in the last few years I have been doing it.
Hope no one starts thinking that way in these circles.

Gary

Well, folks, remember the old adage about what seems too good to be true probably is?

The listing, out of the duplicates, that is the "donor"-- by the actual owner-- from which the two phonies were composed, is the one that lists the pistol for $2700. In a phone call to my FFL dealer to see just what kind of FFL he received by email from the other end, he told me it was phony. He's conscientious enough to look up the numbers on the FFLs he receives, to cross-check the other info on the form. This one had been altered to list an address in Indianapolis--changed from the actual holder's address in Kentucky.

I've reported the cheap listings on the other two sites as scams after corresponding with the actual gun owner. And I also forwarded all correspondence between me and the "seller" to an agent in the Syracuse office of the BATFE, along with a copy of the altered license, and the email between me and the real owner.

The agent did not hold out much hope for finding out how this case works out. Once the complaint is accepted, it will start an investigation--checking URLs for the emails sent, etc. She said it may take a couple months for this to happen, then maybe a couple more YEARS to complete the investigation and go after the scumbags, if they decide to. Not very satisfying, but at least the agent said I'd been very thorough in what I'd submitted.

In the meantime, I'll spend any spare moments baiting these crooks. Right now they're waiting for tracking info for a money order which will never arrive. I'll be having all sorts of "trouble" getting to the bank, then the P.O., then I might "lose the receipt" to scan or "get the numbers on it wrong"!! I'll enjoy the creative challenge and am open suggestions as to what to do to give 'em a really hard time for as looooong as I can.

Thanks for all the pointers and suggestions as to how I can protect my money! I don't know if there's a sticky about the finer points of detecting and avoiding gun scams, but I'll try to compile one from the examples provided by this deal and submit it. The contribution by Skye's research was the last straw in sniffing this out; thanks a million!

David Parker

Anytime thats why we are here right?

David:
I'm surprised that the BATF doesn't take these matters more seriously. Heaven forbid if an FFL dealer forgets to dot the "i"on a 4473. I understand that they are spread pretty thin, but like I said, just disappointed. Thought they'd be all over fictitious FFL's.
dju

Simple. All they have to do is arrive dressed as a "company courier" for "World Express" which you have "used" to send your "certified funds". When they reach out to collect the envelope, and sign for receipt, the nice delivery driver identifies himself as an ATF or FBI agent, and starts reading them their rights, just after cuffing them. But that would be too easy, so it will never happen..... Just glad you didn't lose any money to the scammers. Be careful out there.

Have you had a chance to google the faked address and take a look at the "dropoff"?

David,

I share the disappointment. Do priorities of the bureau really run this way? Incredible!

Doug,

Yes, street view of a dumpy house. Google the woman's name...check out the Facebook page that comes up. Brrr!
NAME--Amber Planck
ADDRESS--928 Minnesota St Indianapolis Indiana 46203

Just got an email from her, wants me to be sure to get it sent tomorrow. He-heh I think I'll offer to drive out tomorrow with the cash and do the exchange ftf at a dealer's.

Always beware of deals just before the Holidays! A MG dealer friend told me about an almost perfect, forged Form 4 he just received from someone trying to sell him a Colt 1921 Thompson, (retail value, about $50k).
The times are desperate for some and people are willing to commit felonies of this type, since the prosecution rate is low.

why not send them a phony MO. i am sure you can find an image in the web. :)

I'd thought of that. If I bought one for the $860, took it home and scanned it, then returned to the P.O. and redeemed it myself, I'd only be out the fee for the order--not much.

I told 'em this morning that I couldn't start the truck to make it to the bank by noon, stalling until at least Monday. It will be next week sometime when they'd be led to believe that a money order was purchased. I may scan an old receipt and doctor the image to be sufficiently leading and confusing, as I'm not going to bother with actually buying one.

But before that, I'll tease 'em with the idea that I'm driving out there for a face-to-face transaction...or maybe that I have a friend there who is going to stop by and check it out. I might get a phone number out of them, which could help with further shenanigans.

Tell em you're going to send them the money via western union. Then they will have to go to the office and stand around. That'll waste a day of their life, and keep them away from the computer. Only after you lead them on for several days on the money order. Be careful about forging or "counterfeiting" any money orders. They will never get in trouble, but with our luck, the feds will be knocking on our door the next day.