C96 Persian Contract
 

Like to get your opinions regarding this C96 .. thank you in advance. :cheers: ~Darius

some additional pictures :D

few others... :roflmao:

is it easier to take it apart or to put it all back together :confused: :evilgrin:

I would love to be able to take pictures like these :burnout:

Reblued. No doubt.

The base before reblue was not very horrible.

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Be honest, I could not understand why people reblued this thing. Say, it came in low condition, he/she accepted that, big deal? after all, that's just a thin layer of Fe3O4 for visual appearance, not worth the cost, the logic is at least self-contained. Accepted, then, spend more $$ to refurbish it,,,,, still cares that Fe3O4? Conflict in logic. Correct behavior is supposed to be (well, in my view): it is what it is, and feel proud of it, no change.

perhaps re-blued for looks or to last another 100+ years :o
here's description:

OK. I will put my non-technical stuffs aside, just talk this "professionally restored". The work was not very professional: The overall color tone is wrong. The trigger finish is wrong. The halo on "sunrise" is gone. The hammer was poorly sand blasted. After 100+ years, it's "old reblued".

Alvin what would an untouched example be worth? what price would you put on this one?

The latest reference sales.... Ralph M sold two instances in March. I inspected both in hands. Both are 80% with good bore. One came to me and cost me about $5k. Another one sold probably $4k. I could have been a little bit more flexible if I had registered both (but I only registered one, that's a mistake). Unexpectedly, someone competed the price up. On brighter side, my muzzle crown is good, the muzzle on the other one is marred. But that alone does not really justify the price delta. I have to agree that the other one got better deal. The two are comparable in general.

If those go $4k, $5k, then this one, ,,,,, , you know, people playing guns have their ranges regardless of gun types. But I noticed players of C96s and Lugers usually have tolerance of $1k or $2k -- if someone can pay $3k for this one, why not wait next one for $4k.... this is a "4x" gun (four times price of a standard C96 in similar condition), there should be other good samples showing up in future.

Here is the one.

You're right. Thanks Alvin.

here's one in 95% condition :cheers:

Here's an example of a very run down 1910 Mauser Broomhandle Persian Contract Pistol, likely candidate for restoration :rolleyes:

..and one in 80% condition

For those interested in further reading:
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Archive/page2

The picture is too dark to evaluate. But one thing for sure, the grip panels were either modified or reproduced. I saw this gun somewhere, but I forgot where. Texas dealer?

Mauro and Vlim's article is great. There are many things that collectors cannot summarize out accurately through sample observation no matter how many instances that they have seen. Only original document can describe those accurately. So, that's invaluable.

But production volume article does not replace individual sample observation either. For collector searching for Persian, pay special attention on the "sunrise" stamp. If the stamp does not halo, it's reblued, period. Of course, C96 is not special, it's same group of professionals working on other C&Rs working on C96, be aware the common tricks. Not saying reblued guns are absolutely not acceptable, but knowing the state.

In C96 world, rarity 1x and 1.5x can be rated as "common"; rarity 2x and 2.5x can be rated as "scarce"; rarity 3x, 3.5x, and 4x can be rated as "rare" (so Persian is rare). Above 4x, "very rare" (if not very rare, at least very expensive). For 4x and above variations, lower shape and nicely done reblue might be acceptable... but that's up to individual. Below 3x, many original instances (or, mostly original but with minor modification instances) exist in various kinds of shapes. Persian is on the boundary, or above. This is a very personal view. Amazingly, for a gun with only 1100 production volume, it's only 4x. Its production volume was only about 0.3% of standard C96 (i.e. C96/M1912, s/n from 120K to 430K). We can see the non-linear nature of C&R.
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[Edit] Just realized one thing -- no books address those?? This is forum only. No wonder we see collector books in mint condition collected lots of dust listed for sale :)

Just reinstalled a free image processing software on my PC and en-lighted the picture a little bit. Man, this thing does not look right. Not only the "sunrise" halo's not there (at least, I did not see it even enlarged), the surface does not look right either -- the section has blue near the crest area being very reflective. If that's not caused by gun oil applied on surface, I would say this thing was reblued too. Combined with this funny grip, it's hard to make other conclusion.

And.... The state of pre98.com instance is very obvious. No need to comment.

But one thing interesting, "Gun Collector" article mentioned 600 guns were delivered to Persian, and 500 guns stayed in Germany.

Were those reblued Persians most like from Persia, or "liberated" from Germany?, or mixed too? I have seen a RFV marked one, it's reblued too.

that's a really cool program you have on your PC:thumbup: & you have a great memory :cheers: I had to look it up again, but it is offered by a fellow in Texas:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Mau...n_id=100302678

Alvin, do you happen to have a good picture of the "sunrise" halo? so I can compare with. :D

Free one. Downloadable from here:

http://picasa.google.com/

I found it's very useful to enlight dark pictures and enlarge small pictures.

For the "sunrise" stamp, here it is. Unlike the "lion" crest, this "sunrise" stamp was applied after the gun had been blued. Please note the unevenness of the stamp's edge and the halo.

And, as a small subset of prewar M1912 production, the finish of this variation is same with other ones in the period. Not rough, but not reflective either.

Just noticed the 1st Persian that you posted from pre98.com. That one is probably OK. But from the picture, at least the bolt stop was refinished. It makes this otherwise good looking piece so unbalanced. It's a huge mistake to put this tiny part into melt mineral although the mineral itself is cheaply available on Brownells. People doing crazy things sometimes.

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[Edit] Not in hurry, valid 4x gun appears every other year. There are more Persian than Turkish. Turkish is a little bit crazy.... even the one in NRA Poor condition listed on gunbroker.com sold near $3000 a month ago. Turkish is probably 8x, or even 12x, or,,, God knows. I have seen more 6-shot and Carbines than Turkish. All of those have about 1000 production volume, the difference is survival rate. But if there is super nice Turkish going over $30K, and super poor Turkish going $3k, then, there are supposed to have more intermediate ones... no reason why this thing could only go to the extreme ends.

i would appreciate clarification on the halo... image A is from your post, image B is one of the untouched mauser, and image C is of the reblued.
is the halo the red arrow in image B? or is this just a double stamp? :confused: cause honestly i can't see a halo in image A, unless i'm not looking in the right place. :(
:surr:

Excellent C96 database :thumbup: : http://www.g6csy.net/c96/database.html

Mauser C96 Turkish Contract
 

for completeness :D

Mausers of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire:
http://www.turkmauser.com/models.aspx

The Turkish Mauser Forum:
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...m#.UpwD5eJC9y4

No. The arrow pointed area was a little bit overstamping. Not halo. Halo was minor discoloration around the edge of the stamp. Before you get comfortable on this, don't put serious $$ into any of those. There are people faking this type of appearance via micro sand blasting.

The Turkish posted was from Ralph M collection as well. The guy chased "completeness", obviously putting the priority of "completeness" in front of "original". He got quite a few rare items. All sold in March.

With Ralph M, Joe S, and Sturgess sold their collections, I am not sure the high tide of "C96 bulk selling" passed in this decade or not. Maybe not, there are many anonymous collectors... we will see in next few years.

It's beautiful, but I must agree with Alvin, and not doubt I prefer all my collectibles, C-96 included, in their original state.

Sometimes specific models or variations are rare enough to allow a breach in the general rule "original finish only". If it is a decent job, I would have no problem to purchase a rare item refinished, as long as priced accordingly. But, it is always a very personal decision.

Douglas

Yes of course I agree with you; in fact I somehow swallowed my pride when I had the chance to buy a nice but "rebarreled" 1934 "K" P.08

One of E&P's greatest contribution to the community was this chart. C96 collector should burn this chart in mind. The only exception is Schnellfeuer. In production volume and survival rate, it's not tiny. But there is a legal transferable issue in the US, so gun is 2.5x, plus another 10x for fully transferable instance, it's probably a 12x item in the US. Situation in other countries in the world might be different. I don't know.

what an awesome chart. thanks Alvin :cheers:

I found a 2011 "Gun Digest Book of Modern Gun Value" in Barnes & Nobles. It interested me because one of the editors was Joe S. Probably C96 value data in that book came from him. There are a few other editors listed that I don't know, most likely experts in other domains.

He quoted Persian in "Exc" condition $2750. Since there is also a few reference photographs of sample C96 at the beginning of the book showing the definition of "Exc", "Very Good", "Good" and "Fair". My understanding his defintion of "Exc" roughly translates into 95%

Geez!! Persian in 95% only has $2750 book value. The one like I bought can be rated as "Very Good", then, it's a $2000 gun, and I paid what,,,, paid over $5000 on it. Should I laugh or should I cry?

Curiously, I looked back a few pages, into "L" section, what's the value of K date Luger..... Oh oh, who offered this data? K date Luger in "Exc" is $1500 in the book. Lord, feel much better :) most likely I am not alone paying "2.5 x book"

If I say they rated everything low, that's also not true. The 1902 Fat barrel was rated pretty high. "Exc" $9500, and "Very Good" $7500. No wonder usgunexchange.com refused to sell you his instance at $6500 :)

I just got my brand new 34th ed bb, & for the Persian contract Mauser Broomhandles gives $4,500 for 98%, $3,500 for 95% and $2,500 for 90%; add $1,000-$1,500 for matching shoulder stock. :rtfm: $2,000 for 80%!!

Looks like it's good data then. The only problem is that I cannot sell it at $3000 loss unless I am desperate. Supposedly, there is a $2000 Persian in similar shape waiting a buyer in future auctions. Patience will reward you.

I don't know who bought that $4k instance. At loss of $2k, his instance will also be out of supply for sure. But this is still not the worst case, who bought that $7500 instance from pre98.... even assume there was a little bit discount, I am sure it was not too far away from asking price. This type of difference definitely takes these guns out of market for decades.

Now, we understand why it's rarely seen.

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On the other hand, since market realized price is way higher than book, that should attract more old timers and their heirs to sell their instances. Turkish "Exc" $5000, ,,,, it should appear, a little bit higher than book is not unacceptable :)

I've not got any Persian, but I enclose a photo of my Schnellfeuer

I did not buy the book. In memory, a few popular pistols' in "Exc" shape (original, 95% or above):

Red 9, $1350
byf Luger, $800
DWM Military, $800
AE 1900, $3500
TE 1900, $5000
C96 Carbine, $15000
Bolo, $900
Conehammer, $2000

Great gun.

There was a true story on this type of gun in this book, very readable.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-March.../dp/0070544719

One soldier described to the author his first impression on Schnellfeuer in 1934. His troop captured 8 German made Schnellfeuers in a battle. He was shot by Schnellfeuer, lost an arm.

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Over here, it's possible to apply a special license to play selective-fire firearms, but need local police chief's approval. Semi-auto actually also needs his approval. So we pray no mad man commit anything, otherwise, we will be punished for other's behavior.

sweet :cheers: all matching?

Yest, it's an all matching, first type.

In 1930s, Chiang Kai-shek bought many M1930 and M1932 for his elite troops. Rumor saying that was advised by his German military advisor, who happened to be a C96 enthusiast and strongly recommended Mauser. Even had rumor saying that was recommended by von Seeckt himself. The gun itself was a little bit outdated in 1930's context, but its special features of wood stock and selective firing, still made it attractive at that time.

C96 Carbine $15,000?!!!!! :eek:

This is an interesting informative website on Mauser C96 Carbines:
http://askmisterscience.com/1896maus...p/carbines.htm