need help stripping a 1912 Erfurt for re-finish
 

I recently picked up a shooter grade 1912 Erfurt P08. It is in good condition metal-wise and is matching. The finish is something I've never seen before. On top of the original rust blue is some kind of epoxy or baked on enamel. I've run some experiments and found the following:
1. Commercial Muriatic acid (not swimming pol stuff)...barely touched it after 3 minute immersion...but took the bare blued areas down nicely to bare metal. I'm afraid of going longer for fear of over etching the metal areas.
2. Lacquer thinner: 24 hour soak...no effect.
3. Acetone: 24 hour soak...no effect.
Attached are some pictures of the frame and barre/receiver. The frame was soaked in Muriatic for 3 min and later in lacquer thinner for 24 hrs...some areas were already worn off from age and handling, but you can see areas of the black junk still remaining.
The barrel/rcvr was only soaked in acetone for 24 hrs. You can see that there was no effect.
So, does anyone have experience with this type of removal...or any suggestions on how to hit it?
My intent is to strip and prep and then send off for re-bluing. Thanks for any inputs.

Hi Steve, just want to welcome you to the forum, we have some very knowledge people on this site and if you will be patient I'm sure you will get the information you are looking for. In the meantime if you use the search feature at the top of this page you may get some ideas there. Good Luck. :cheers:


Lon

I have been struggling with the same thing, and I can't see any other way than blasting it off. Walnut shells may do the trick, but it will probably take glass beads to get it off.

Lysol Toilet Bowl cleaner is great for removing bluing, but I'm not sure it will touch that stuff. You may want to show it to a plating shop to see what they recommend, but be careful about electrical stripping because it could cause hydrogen embrittlement, or some such bad thing...
Radiator repair shops have some pretty good/strong dip tanks.
Have you tried commercial paint stripper, the caustic acid jell. stuff?
dju

thanks to all for the responses...DJU, yes...I forgot that I also bought a can of the thick, goopy paint stripper and "painted" that on and left it for a couple of hours...no luck. I'll pursue some of the other ideas. I want to try to avoid anything that would distort the underlying metal...ie, round off edges and stamps.

Are there any British proof marks on the barrel?
I remember somewhere that some Lugers that made it into British hands for some reason recieved an enamel type finish.

Dave...YES, there are British proof marks on the bottom of the barrel, good catch! This stuff could be enamel, but normal Ace Hdwre paint stripper wouldn't touch it. My undercover assistant (another Forum member) has a line on something called Greensolv 273c used in the aircraft industry and is aimed at epoxy type stripping. We are on a hunt locally at auto paint stores for it or something similar. We are also considering trying to burn it off with a propane torch holding the temperature in the 400 F range. Steve

I would look into and reasearch more deeply on what EXACTLY the Brits applied to these lugers. Enamel can be just a generic term. If and that is a big IF you can find more info into exactly what it is it may be more easier to find what will remove it and it could make it easier for you.
On a side note and I won't harp on it but I will say my piece, that finish was part of the Lugers history, but since you are past that point with the Luger I will add my Good Luck to you in your project and I hope you will keep us posted with the outcome.:)

I am mildly surprised that no one has suggested that your Luger may be a Russian capture/VoPo Luger that was exported to (or more likely through) GB and received the British proofs there. A Search here will reveal instances of a 'tar-like' coating applied to these Lugers, and various methods of removal.

I would go with the crushed walnut shell blasting, or crushed corncobs, as a non-destructive method of removing the coating.

An alternative would be to entrust the Luger refinishing to an established restorer. Gerald Tomek on this forum is highly recommended by many members here for this refinishing. :)

Postino...funny you should mention that...GT is my mole. We live a few miles apart and I'm leaning heavily on him for advice and guidance. We are taking this slowly and trying the least invasive/destructive methods first. Interesting possibility about RC or VOPO connection prior to UK. Clearly more "discovery" is in order.
Dave...Yes, I very much agree with the historical considerations...it is definitely part of the history of this gun. It's a fine line between leaving it as it is and taking it back to the original configuration of just the rust blue finish. If it had been in better condition and more "collectable" instead of just being a shooter that might have been the better option.
I will post our progress. Steve

I had an Erfurt with British proofs. It had been painted black. However this coating came off rather easily with 0000 steel wool and oil. Sounds like, as has been suggested, Russian dipped. On mine after removal of the paint the original finish was intact and in good shape. If anyone can figure it out it is GT. Good luck Bill

Bill...I have some 0000 steel wool so I tried it with CLP...didn't make a dent in the black coating...pretty sure this isn't our "friendly" RC dip. I also went to Sherwin-Williams and bought a can of the toughest stripper they have...called Super Strip. I did a test area on the frame three times for 1/2 hr each time and then wire brushed with a small brass brush with negligible result. I'll consult again with GT and if we can't think of another solvent to try, it may be blasting time. Steve

I don't know if you have already tried this stuff, but if not you might want to give it a try.

Some time back, I need to remove some base coat/clear coat epoxy paint. My regular paint stripper(from Ace) wouldn't even touch it. My friend that does a lot of this kind of thing told me to get:

Klean-strip
Low odor
Aircraft remover

It has a picture of an airplane on the can. It works!! I still had to apply it more than once, and allow quite some time for it to work, but it did strip it off. You MUST wear gloves and be careful with this stuff. I purchased it in an automotive store like Checkers/Auto Zone/etc. but I just don't remember exactly which one. Good luck.

Steve: see MEK . Welcome aboard.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&highlight=MEK

Ken D

rhuff...I just ran over to my auto supply house and picked up a qt of Klean-Strip. I put a thick coat of it all over the frame...too early to see results...instructions say it could take a few hours and may need repeating...fingers crossed.
Ken D...just saw your email...MEK is next if the above doesn't get it.
Once again, thanks to all for the suggestions. Will update with any new results. Steve

Give a try at a overnight soak in regular old gasoline....it worked for me on some unknown finish on a old Hi-Power

Sunday morning update...no luck so far. I soaked the barrel/rcvr overnite in gasoline...didn't touch the black stuff. I had also left the Super Strip on the frame overnite...no change this morning. So, it looks like either propane torch to try to burn it off or head to the bead blaster. It may take a few days to get new info, but I'll post when available. I do check the links you all suggest...thanks. Steve

"Thick Formula, THE WORKS, Disinfectant Thick Toilet Bowl Cleaner". This stuff might do it as it will remove nickel or chrome plating.

That British black enamel is like the old stove enamel...tough as nails. The only way I have been able to remove it is with 0000 steel wool, acetone and hours and hours of elbow grease. As far as I know there is no quick and easy way. Use rubber gloves, that acetone will suck all of the oil out of your skin.

Sorry to hear that my stuff didn't work for you. That is definitely some "bugger tough stuff"!!

The judicious use of a mini butane pencil torch (of the type that is used for browning the top of Creme' Brulee dessert) that is kept moving to affect ONLY the paint and not greatly affect the temperature of the frame should burn the paint crispy so you can brass wire brush it off. I can not overemphasize that you can't hold the torch steady in one spot too long. You must keep it moving. This small size torch miminizes the chance that you will damage the frame. ( see the example from an ebay auction)

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Mini-pencil-t...Wme7h!~~_1.JPG

If you have ever stripped paint off of wood with a torch that is the technique you need to emulate. Hold it in one place only long enough to burn the paint and then brass brush or scrape it and move on. Once the paint is burnt to ash, it will be easy to brass brush off.

You don't want to burn the "wood" only the paint. Try something simple like the lanyard loop first... This technique will work, but it will be slow.
Good luck, and take lots of photos of your progress and post them here.

Tuesday update...the last couple of days have been very frustrating...haven't seen any progress...we were close to breaking out the propane torch, but GT and I got together again and tried one more shot at using a solvent.

RHUFF, this Bud's for you! GT had picked up an aerosol can of KLEAN-STRIP (I had been using it from a qt can)...there was a very visual difference in the reaction when sprayed on. Clearly good things started to happen. It wasn't going to be a quick stripping, but we now feel that with time and multiple applications, it will come clean. I was concerned about the different result of the can vs. the spray, so I called the manufacturer to see if there was any difference between the two...answer was, NO...they are the same. So, I took the rest of the qt can and dumped it in a metal pan and have submerged the "offending" parts in it and will let the soak with occasional stirring for 24 hrs. I also bought another spray can as a backup for after the soaking. I'm thinking it may well take multiple cans. The only thing I can think of for the different reactions is perhaps a shelf life problem. Ours came from two different stores. The guy at KLEAN-STRIP confirmed that the active ingredient is Methylene Chloride.
All other suggestions are duly noted and on the back burner for now.
I'm hoping for "clean" pictures within a week...I'll share. Steve

addendum to above...It is also requiring vigorous wire brush action at about 1 hr intervals. I have both stainless and brass brushes...both types are small with fairly soft bristles. Toward the end we may go to 0000 and Acetone for the final prep before sending off for re-bluing. Steve

Steve,

I am so glad that you are making progress. I don't know what the difference in the two cans might be, but shelf life could certainly enter in. Just don't get this stuff on your skin or in your face.....it is a "bad actor"(ask me how I know!!). I used one of those non-metal/open pore paint stripping wheels in my drill at a very slow speed(keeps from flipping the stripper on you or others), and a lot of 00 steel wool. I look forward to hearing your progress. I like Bud, by the way.

Just a thought but I wonder if that could have been Powder coated? It sounds like a real nightmare to remove. :surr:

Lon

A putty knife will help get things started once the paint has softened.
dju

Caution! Those stripping wheels are quite abrasive, there's grit bonded to the filaments of the pad, and I'd worry about surface damage.

"Bad actor"--agreed! I worked part-time during college at an antique store, where I refinished furniture. A co-worker got a kick out of applying just a dab to, say, the inside of my upper arm, where the skin is tender. He was sneaky about it, but even if you caught him, it was too late. As the methylene chloride soaked thru the skin, it would create a burning sensation that would not wash off, impervious to any efforts to relieve it. A prank that registers high on the annoyance meter... To whirl one's face full of the stuff would be quite an experience!

That's what this stuff sounds like to me.

D.P.

Well, the saga continues...the last couple of days have seen some, but minimal progress. The Klean-Strip is slowly attacking it, but very slowly. So, today I went back over to GT's place and we decided to put the muscle to it...try to speed things up. We broke out the propane torch...and very tentatively attacked a small area. It took several maybe 5 second shots with wire brushing between shots to see any removal. So, we got more aggressive and really went after it...right up to the point that the metal was just starting to turn bluish...GT estimated about 600F...we didn't dare go any hotter for obvious reasons. The results were not as good as expected...still significant residual black junk hanging on. So, we did a prolonged application of the Klean-Strip after all the parts cooled down...then rinsed and dried and soaked in Muriatic acid for several minutes. After all of this there was still remnants remaining...more than we expected. Here are some before and after pics. The plan is to continue the propane treatment, with Klean-Strip and muriatic acid dips. I think this will get it done, but it ain't easy...what the hell is this stuff???. I really don't want to go to bead blasting.

Wonder if soda-blasting would touch the stuff?
Also, I'm still betting that th guys at the chrome plating shop could get it off without weakening the metal, just have to show it to them and express your parameters.
dju

sthomp,
I have a lead for you. Look up Suncorite 259 Enamel, just put it in a search engine on the computer. This may be what was applied to your luger.

One last thing to try: Brake fluid. I have used it with great success, especially on plastic parts that would melt if you used harsher chemicals. This is what plastic model builders use to remove a botched paint job, and it seems to strip most types of paint. Go with the cheapest DOT3 you can find, the higher grades won't work. I can't guarantee the result, but a 32 oz bottle will only set you back $6-$7 so it's worth a try.

To try the brake fluid, if you don't have any on hand, you can get a smaller bottle (or two) 8 oz. size of DOT 3 at most Dollar Tree stores where everything is only a $1.00... and yes, don't spill it on any painted surfaces that you don't intend to strip. DAMHIK.

OK, I GIVE UP! I checked local metal plating and metal stripping businesses around Phoenix and after talking to half a dozen or so, picked one and took all the parts to them...now I won't be able to sleep for a week until I get them back. The old guy there knew exactly what to do, although he couldn't name the black finish on the parts. Rhuff, guess what he is going to use...Methaline Chloride, the active ingredient in Klean-Strip...but a much higher concentration...And the cost, you might ask...why yes sir...$42 includuding hazardous waste disposal!...half of what I've already spent. Now let's not jump for joy until I have them back. Pictures and comments will be forthcoming in a week to 10 days.
BTW, Patronen, I did a search on Suncorite 259 and it sounds EXACTLY like the stuff on my Luger.
If I could have found someone to do soda blasting I would have tried it. The info I found on it and the comments from the local shops sounded encouraging. I don't have compressor and it does make quite a mess. But this shop was ready to go.
So, once again, thanks to all who voiced their thoughts and suggestions and encouragement. Steve

I've seen it wrinkle up the paint on a car so that it lifts off like skin. That was a while ago, though, and I'm not sure of its effects on present day auto finishes, which are acrylic. I'm not clairvoyant, John, but how far off is a ring of paint lifted from a car fender?

http://www.enfield-rifles.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2653

Here is a thread from another forum about suncorite removal.

yes, the consensus seems to be that Methylene Chloride may be the only thing to hit this stuff. I think that is what GT and I were seeing using the Klean-Strip aerosol which uses a lower concentration of MC. I think the concentration/ percentage of MC in Klean-Strip was just not enough to efficiently get this stuff off quickly. I'm guessing that my shop will use a much more concentrated dose of the MC and get the job done. After the last posted pics from yesterday, I used some 400 grit paper and it did a good job on the flat surfaces, but impossible to get into the nooks and crannies and was not good for corners or in the stamps. I just don't see any other way to get this done than some chemical application...we'll see (and hope).

I have seen DOT3 wrinkle the paint in the engine compartment of a 71' Camaro I used to own, nicely detailed and freshly painted with modern 2K paint... :mad:

After reading all the posts, and all the things you have tried, it sounds like you are gonna have to bead blast it, polish it, and have it salt blued. Then you will have a beautiful Luger. Because of my OCD this is the route I would take. Just my .02 cents. Good luck. It will be an awesome looking Luger.

Hey Mark, as Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over until it's over". The jury is still out; let's see what results from the full-strength bath in methylene chloride.

If it does need blasting, I think it could be rust blued again if the surface were sanded and trued after the nooks and crannies are cleaned out. Though the evidence of any such treatment will always exist, it would probably satisfy my OCD!

All right guys...IT'S OVER. I got the parts back today from the local plating shop...they did a wonderful job on it (see pics below). There are a few little spots in some stampings and old pits that didn't come completely clean, but it's 99% in my estimation. Now just getting it ready to ship off to have it re-blued and strawed.
My STRONG advice to anyone faced with this tough of a strip job...take it to a professional!
Many thanks to everyone for their suggestions and best wishes. I will try to remember to post "after" pics when I get it all back together. Steve