Snail drums and the law
 

I realize that state laws will vary a lot but what is the take so far on how pending laws will affect ownership/sales of the Artillery snail drums?

Gary

depends on your state

In most states, unless there is a rule on high capacity, it would not be affected?

Wouldn't they be banned in the "out there" states like NJ, CA, NY?
dju

Yes. There is no "C&R" category for magazines, which is something I would consider presenting to ATF.

I think that if you have a 32rd snail drum and do not have a loader to go with it it would be very hard to load past the 10rd
compasity law. I would bet I could win this one in a court of law. Because it would still have only a 10rd compasty.
Just my thought.
Thanks,George Fortier:rolleyes:

You'd be betting your money on a losing horse. You are talking about the agency who took cardboard and duct tape to cobble together a "sideplate" for those Browning 1919A4 kits that came in, in order to get them to fire more than one round with a single pull of the trigger, in an attempt to classify them as complete "machineguns".

They will have an agent in court with a sledge hammer, if that's what it takes to prosecute you.

KitKat,

I am afraid I have to concur with Doug... the issue is capacity, not how many rounds your weak hands might be able to stick into the device... if the BATFE agent manages to get 11 rounds into it with his bare hands, you LOSE big time!

Are snail Drums restricted only to artillerys~~~~

Well the reason I put it in this part of the forum is because I understand that Artillerys is what they were designed for. If this is a bad choice I hope some mod will move it where it belongs.

So the take is that if my state passes a 15 round capacity law I'm up that well known tributary without the proper means of locomotion.

What I am hearing is that if you already own a HC mag you will be grandfathered in but never be able to sell it. That is what one of the 2d amendment guys told me at the last gun show. He was basing that on what he had heard about what Colorado has in the pipeline.

Sure wish I knew.

Gary

There is no federal law that states you can not use an artillery drum in a 4 inch luger

Stocks yes, magazines no

Awesome! Ed this ones for you!

Great Eric, I'll send you my address :D

Well, one thing that encourages one to use it with a stock in whatever you choose to fire it in is that when you shoot one without a stock it is a strain (at least for me) to hold it straight as the weight of that mag, even half full, really torques the gun.

Gary

It's wackier than that in NY State; this gives the overview--all the crappy answers--http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-reform

As you can see, I'm not a candidate for legally owning a snail drum mag. Before this B.S. law, I would have been.

Glad I moved from NY when the Clintons moved in but not getting off the subject matter.....I LOVE SNAIL DRUM's. and Florida is a good gun/magazine state.

I'm a little slow there Ed. Read the comment and missed half of it. I didn't know that you can not use a stock with a 4" barrel. For my edification can you guide me to where it is? I need to be able to reference that.

Is it worded in such a way that navies with navy stocks and artillerys with artillery stocks are OK or is it more generalized?

Important info I did not know... "ignorance of the law is no excuse"

Gary

:surr:

Gary, look up the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934, read until you find the term "Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)"... Then go to the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) website and see the list of the ONLY versions of pistols that can use a shoulder stock because they are Curios and Relics (C&R) and are exempted from the National Firearms Act.

Putting a shoulder stock on a pistol with less than a 16" barrel, (if it is not on the C&R list) is a federal offense (construction of a short barreled rifle). A $10,000 fine and a Ten Year all expenses paid vacation to a Federal "Resort" facility, and loss of your privilege to own firearms is a big price to pay for ignorance of the law.

Also see: http://www.lugerforum.com/BATF.html

Thanks John.

I'm still looking for the specific list on their web site as I have not been able to out think their search engine. Found all sorts of stuff to read about though... LOL. The one that rocked my boat though was:

a 9mm Springfield Armory model XD–9 Sub–Compact Luger pistol, with a 16–round magazine.

I'll keep looking. Long ago when I had no internet to speak of (only MILNET) and had to read everything out of pages of stuff in hard copy I was of the understanding that all Lugers over 50 years old with had original shoulder stock lugs were legal with stocks--as the gun itself was a C&R and the stock by itself was not under the restrictions of the provisions. Reading Ed's comment I wondered if the rules had been updated to specify Carbines, Navy and Artillery as the "only" Lugers that could have stocks.
The link you provided to the 1981 letter was interesting as surely a 4" Luger should be just as legal with a stock as a Browning HP.

Bottom line for me though is not how close to the edge of the ice I can skate but how to make sure I'm in the safe zone.

Thanks again

Gary

Sorry, but it ain't so...
I never said that there was logic in the BATFE policies...

NEVER assume anything where the Federal Government is Concerned...

I agree 100% and even expand that to most law enforcement agencies.

I loved the Texas concealed weapons ruling that stated one could not have a loaded firearm in their car "unless traveling".

That meant it was OK/not OK depending on the time of day, your race, the mood of the officer or the phase of the moon.

Here's the list of lugers removed from the NFA as collector's items and classified as Curios Or Relics under the GCA (minus any additions from 2008 to present).

Link: http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...elics-list.pdf

ATF Publication 5300.11 Revised December 2007
SEC. III. Weapons removed from the National Firearms Act (NFA) as collector's items which are determined to be Curios or Relics subject to the provisions of the GCA. page 34 - 42

Luger, Artillery model, pistols having chamber dates of 1914 through 1918 or 1920, having German Weimar Navy markings consisting of the letter M over an anchor and a German Navy property number accompanied by original Artillery Luger flat board stocks, bearing German Weimar Navy markings of the letter M over an anchor with or without Navy property numbers.

Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900,1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.

DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920. Naval pistols in 9mm parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs, being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rearthickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of l-3/16".

Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having eitherAmerican Eagle chamber crests and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany" marking.

Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16".

Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM orErfurt, having chambers dated 1914 –1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

Luger, model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, 7.65mm Luger with original commercial type shoulder stock and forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.

Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauserprior to 1945, accompanied by the original artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters stamped into the wood on the left side.
Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding shoulder stock

Jack

A little update here for those interested and specifically for those living in Colorado.

The Governor of Colorado requested techincal guidance to use with the July 1 law. These are published on the Colorado Bureau of Investigation web site under a tab "2013 Firearms Regulations":

Technical Guidance on the Interpretation and Application of House Bill 13-1224 Large Capacity Magazine Ban

Additional Technical Guidance on the Interpretation and Application of House Bill 13-1224 Large Capacity Magazine Ban

They are only a couple pages and easy to read but make no notice or mention of colletors items or curios and relics.

As they read anyone that has possessed the item before the law went into effect may continue to posses it but may not transfer it or obtain more.

I called CBI for clarification. I was referred to the office of the Adjutant General. I called there and was referred to CBI (that didn't catch anyone off guard did it?). After a discussion with the person on the line who carefully walked me through the steps to find what I needed on the internet--you guessed it, the above papers. Then politely told that if I needed any additional guidance I would need to hire a privet attorney.

To my question: "If I display my 'high capacity magazines' at a gun show, how will a law enforcement officer know if I should be arrested"? I was given the same answer.

Just to keep under the radar I don't think I'll take my two snail drums to the gun show.

I would like to sell them but I guess I would have to drive down to Arizona and mail them out.

Gary