Please take a look and give me your thoughts
 

My grandfather was in WW2 and was ambushed in Berlin by a Russian squad. His group killed all the Russians and took this pistol off of one of the Russians. I'm looking for a value of the weapon for insurance purposes....it's never going to be for sale and will always be in our family.

Can you please help me with:
1. Estimated value
2. Should I look for a holster (don't have one) and another clip that matches to increase the value
3. Should I fire this or just keep in the safe as a family collectible item
4. Does the clip match the gun?

http://s258.photobucket.com/user/tac...w/WWII%20Luger

Thanks in advance for your help and thoughts.

Hi Tom and welcome to the forum, you came to the right place to get the answers you are looking for, give the members with the answers a little time and I'm sure they can help. Looks like a very nice Luger. :cheers:

Lon

Very nice looking luger. Is your magazine actually numbered to the pistol?

I don't see any numbers on the clip. I've been told it matches the pistol but was looking for someone to confirm that

Hello tackkjr
Welcome to the forum!
Since the real experts haven't jumped in yet,I will try to give you some information.
You have a Mauser made late war P08 Luger chambered for 9mm ammunition. These are commonly referred to as "Black Widow" lugers and usually issued to German Army units.It looks all original. The grips and the magazine are the original style that where issued with the gun.The finish looks good with some honest wear.The magazine on these guns where not serial numbered,so if you want a spare one,any one of a similar type will be correct.
As for value,i would guess @ $2500.00.
If you want to get the correct holster, look for a late war black military style with the metal buckle.
Since your gun looks all original,there is a danger if you shoot it,a numbered part might break and decrease the guns value.
If it where me,I would clean and lubricate it really good and shoot it some. Use low power ammunition like winchester white box.
Your gun is the strongest of all the Lugers made up until the 1970's.
I take it your grandpa was on the German side during the war? So he liberated this pistol from the Russians! Nice.
Congratulations
Bob

Actually grandad was a US master Sargent. I found it odd that they were jumped by Russians but that's how he told the story. His name is the one on the certificate from the US army

Don't store the gun in a holster.

Not a problem...don't have a holster for it. Thanks for the tip though, appreciate it!

I'll also be interested in the price put forth from the PROS with papers and without holster.
Jack

My guess. $2100. The capture papers are nice and add to the history but to me anyway do not add a great deal of value. I am sure to many they do. The $2500 figure to me would be top dollar. Nice luger. Bill

If buying $2500 Plus. When I want something I usually have to pay retail.

Hi Tom, and welcome to the forum.

Congratulations on your family heirloom and a very nice Luger.

As it's in original finish and appears to be all matching, it is a collectable Luger.

Is it a "41" dated receiver (over the chamber)? "42" code or "BYF" code on the toggle?

As it appears to be in the original finish, is in a high percentage finish state and probably has all matching numbers, it would be considered collectable.

If you want insurance values, look up something similar on the Simpsons Ltd website. That would be replacement value, and what you should insure it for.

I personally would never shoot it because of the risk of breaking an original numbered part. That reduces it's historical and financial value and just isn't worth the risk. Others differ from this opinion.

Clean it carefully. Keep it lightly oiled with a preserving gun oil. Store it away from leather (which can deteriorate the finish). Perhaps in a silicone gun sock or a zippered case.

Watch out for reproduction holsters if you decide to acquire one. Most can be fairly easily detected, but some of them are pretty well done.

Bill Lyon is right in there with the collector value of this Luger.

When you are documenting this, the suffix letter that appears under the serial number on the front of the frame above the trigger guard is part of the serial number if present.

Be particularly careful if removing the grips. They are easy to chip up by the safety lever.

i wonder if the russians were germans in uniforms they took off of some of the killed russians?

Russian capture... That kills it as a collectable!

Only kidding! I have heard many stories of American and Russian confrontations at the end of the war. So the story does not surprise me.

I agree with the value at about $2500 plus. Nice heirloom!

Bob

The inmediate post war era was much more complex and fascinating than most people realize. There were looters, bootleggers, organized gangsters, "Werewolfs", black marketeers, smugglers and goon squads. Old scores were being settled and more than one murder took place in those post war months that was never investigated or solved. Groups of soldiers from the various allied nations were competing for loot and war booty. Many made millions capitalizing on the chaos and comfusion. Confrontations like the one described were not that uncommon.
My Dad was a B24 gunner in the Eight Airforce, but was later transferred to Cherbourg, where he guarded German prisoners. He told me of one incident where Frenchmen tried to ambush them outside of a bar, (because of the Aircorps uniforms. Many French felt that the USAAC had bombed their towns indiscriminately). Only by pulling unauthorized, concealed .45s were he and his buddies able to walk away from the confrontation.

If this one had not lost the blue on the rib at the position under the toggle, I guess it could go $2500 easily. With this loss of blue, it's probably lower.

Thanks everyone. Since I see this piece as a family possession and not an investment I am leaning toward firing it a bit and allowing the family to enjoy it - all the while taking good care of it. Does that make sense?

Do you all see any real reason for me to pursue an authentic holster (not to store the weapon in obviously) and another clip?

Thanks again for your thoughts

yes, buy a real holster and not a repro

know that if you break a numbered part, it is now worth $600-$800 - this is always a huge debate, people saying these were made to be fired etc, that they are strong and everything - but the fact is that I have heard a dozen first hand experience, and two stories from me (from 'shooter lugers') that broke a numbered part

And, as you can see, I collect war stories - that said, no americans made it to Berlin during the war - but who knows, there were lots of 'conscripted' and lots of stories of russians who fought on the side of germany - could have been a unit like that.

Tom, Again, I'll answer your question. I do not feel that firing an all matching collectable Luger makes sense under any conditions.

Your results may vary.

Marc

Thanks. It's a "41" and not a "42" Thanks again!

So it's worth X amount.
You will never sell it because it is sentimental.
If you fire it you will enjoy it. Maybe break a part and you fix it. It will make it worth less. But you won't sell it. So X amount is inconsequential.
Sentimental value won't change.
And you get to enjoy it other than fondling it.
I believe in shooting unless a gun is an investment, very rare or very valuable.

I don't want it too look some sort of "chit chat" but I would just add that:

a) It looks like a nice gun, and I would never fire an all matching collectible Luger, just a matter of "respect" towards something historically significant.
b) its value in bucks is not important at all if the gun has got some sentimental value to you.

Then anybody is free to do what he wants.
Just my 2 cents.

Closing the loop on this thread I went ahead and bought a 9mm Glock shooter today. Won't be shooting the Luger or the Colt 1911 I got from Grandad. Thanks everyone

Smart idea indeed! If you just wanted to shoot an old relic like a luger, there are many out there that are perfect for shooting and does not have an all matching or sentimental value. And most of them are a whole lot less than one would think. You already have one luger, just get the fever and buy another one just for shooting. One's that have a history and a story in my opinion should be just left as story tellers.

Beautiful gun though. take care of it.

Hi Tom.

Not a nice Luger.... A GREAT Luger. I am of a different ilk than the majority of the board members, who, it seems, are far more enamered with a little finish than the historical significance of an item.

1) The suggestion to get a price from some web site like http://www.simpsonltd.com/ is the most valuable information here to for on price. The insurance company is not going to ask the above for opinions in all likelihood. they normally just want "replacement value". Talk to your insurance agent and find out what the company will accept (and certainly offer the "expert" opinions above if they will accept them--probably much more accurate).

2) IMHO the addition of an "original" holster will be of little import and more cosmetic than anything because you, at least, know it is not original to the history of the gun.

3) What I would do with that gun is build a wall display case where it, the papers for it, his service ribbons or medals, unit patch(s), an annotated map of his path in Europe, a copy of his DD-214 and a write up of this story could all be proudly displayed for your families heritage. No holster or extra mag needed.

4) Shooting. The real value in that piece has nothing to do with it's condition. Some people can't see past a dollar sign. If shooting it brings you closer to him then don't hesitate.

All my guns are just pieces of metal and wood. Yours is a piece of American history.

I'm jealous.

Gary

If we stick on sentimental value, none of simpsonltd.com's listing or any other can replace this unique piece regardless of whatever, because none of them is this particular gun. The value of this singleton cannot be measured. But, if want to sell to 3rd party, it must follow market rule. Emotion has no place on blue book.

Gary,

Best line of the entire thread!! You have nailed it!

Bill

Alvin, I do not disagree with you in the slightest. It is just that the online sellers and people on boards like this are about the only source for insurance claims and sentiment is not insurable.

I was just taking him at his word that he wants to keep it in the family as part of the family heritage. It is only a rare historical collector that will pay extra for documented history but it will be up to his great grandchildren to find one, if they so desire.

Hi everyone, took the pistol to a gun show today looking for "the Luger guy" who frequents gun shows in NE Ohio. Found him. It was a great 30 minute history lesson on my pistol. First off, it's a Z something or another and has type 4 grips. The Luger guy is compiling a database of pistols, serial numbers, and grip types. He's seen 3 other pistols which were made around the time of mine with same type 4 grips. He took the pistol apart and confirmed everything matches. He said it's "almost" pristine and is around 95 percent. Where it's worn is where you want it to be warn. It's apparently been shot very little and the bore is excellent. He really enjoyed the capture papers and the story of how my grandfather obtained the pistol.

It was a great time and I really appreciate him looking at the pistol. He reads the forums so "Luger guy" thanks again for your time and expertise that you shared with me and my son today,