Gun show inspections
 

I was looking at $500 broomhandle today at a local gun show. The seller said he never shot it or took it apart. I didn't think the trigger felt "right" and asked if I could take it apart to see if the gun had mismatched parts but the seller was real hesitant about that so I thanked him and moved on.
I know I shouldn't expect much for a $500 shooter (that had a smooth bore), but how do you guys that sell at shows deal with buyers who ask to take apart guns to inspect before they commit to buy? Maybe I committed a breach of gun show etiquette.
Marc

I would not let anybody take a broom handle apart at a gun show, they are a bear to get back together and I have no idea their expertise. A Luger, p38, nambu, ppk, I can take apart.

A broom, no thanks...

The problem with Brooms is that they can be bloody difficult to re-assemble unless you've done it a few times. Had he been proficient he should have offered to do it for you. I know I would if someone waved $500 under my nose. But all in all it's not bad form for you top ask, and it's his business to decilne. MHO.
dju

When people say "I don't know it's matching or not", it's mismatched. Same is true for online auction site, if seller does not explicitly says "all matching", normal expectation is a mismatched gun.

I would handle it like this..Give me the 500. If you hand me back the pistol in one piece after inspecting it and don't want it..I will give you your 500 back. If not.. you bought yourself a pistol. That way the ball is in the buyers court..if he feels confident he can re assemble the pistol he would have no trouble handing over 500 to the seller. Everybodys happy.

I agree with Ed's take though..C-96"s are somewhat like a Polish tractor transmission..easy to take apart, not so easy to get together!

I don't even bother looking for nice lugers or any lugers for that matter at our local gunshow! My last was here in Port St Lucie, Florida and not one single luger. Beef jerky and ammo. Wasn't worth the seven dollars to get in!~~~Eric

I would agree, but only if cash...No checks, and fork over the state sales tax too...(I'm pretty sure only a dealer would set up a table, which means small business)...

I've taken mine apart dozens of times, swapped parts (Thank You, Alvin!), and trouble-shot problems...But...That sear & frame stop lock can be a real nuisance... :grr:

I would not hold it against an owner to refuse dis-assembly at a gun show...There was a pistol I dis-assembled not long ago, that the previous owner advised me to take apart in bed, under white sheets...He was right...Sproing!!!... :D

That said, I would take a chance on a $500 C96 or M30 [not a Bolo]...But then, I have a box of parts to play with...But the smooth bore begs for a price cut... :rolleyes:

Once many years ago, without thinking I instinctively took apart a gun at a show I was very familiar with, all in just a few seconds, the owner almost had a heart attack.

Funny to me but, that guy was seriously upset!

I have never done it since without asking, and I always promise to return it to original.

I know several gun dealers who couldn't field strip a gun if their life depended on it. You can spot them pretty easily, the guns will have the signs of being wiped with oil but never disassembled.

Take pity on your dealer, be nice and most will let you take them apart if you show some competency

( Funny) :) I will never forget the look on that guys face when he turned around and saw the gun in parts and me looking down the barrel with one eye!

Vern

Broom handle question
 

I was recently looking somewhere on line and they were considering a broome handle a class III weapon. It commented about it being a fully automatic weapon. Is this correct about the brrome handles?

There was a class 3 full auto version, a schnellfeuer (not even close, I know). Fired from a closed bolt and not much of a weapon of war, but neat, and of course, expensive now.
Getting back to the original topic, how about getting a business card from the seller and ask to meet up later to closer examine the gun in question? And I agree that a $500 broom at a gunshow is going to be a Chinese import and well mis-matched. But possibly a good core to send to the BroomCloset for a facelift. Fun shooters and great attention getters at the range.
dju

what?

I have had many tables, and I'm sure not a dealer?

This is a true story. I'm long time friend with our local Sherrif. I went years ago to our local gunshow together. He wore civilian clothes. He left to make a check-in to his headquaters and was approached in the parking with a man selling an automatic handgun. He pretended to go along with the deal. Smart thinking he told the seller he could go to the inside teller machine and return with the cash. In side he found one of the under cover ATF agent that I learned patrol every gunshow and met him again in the parking lot while the agent was watching. As the deal was made he was arrested. A gunshow is the last place to do anything illegal!! ~~~Eric

Do you collect sales tax? Do you have an FFL? In my state, there are few gun shows, and I have yet to meet a handgun seller who did not have a business...Selling guns, we're talking about here...

IIRC, you're in Pennsylvania...NYS requires a separate permit to sell handguns, in addition to the small business license, and FFL...Probably other requirements as well, I'm only familiar with the ones that affect me directly...You must also be a NYS resident...Or have a handgun shipped to an FFL in your state...

I can sell a handgun to a valid NYS permit holder, but now I have to go through the NICS check, which means an FFL holder...And the transfer has to be reported to my local pistol permit office within 10 days, and I must have a purchase coupon from the buyer, which he gets from his pistol permit office, with all the information on it...IOW, it has to be registered before I can physically let him take delivery of it...

Here's some more requirements...From the SAFE FAQ...

http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

Q: What types of private handgun, rifle or shotgun sales or transfers are subject to background check requirements?

A: Starting on March 15, 2013, all private handgun, rifle or shotgun sales or transfers (with the exception of those sales or transfers to and between certain family members) will require a background check of the buyer.


Q: As a private individual seller/transferor, how do I conduct a background check on a buyer or transferee?

A: The background check must be performed by a dealer. Federal law and guidelines govern the process that dealers must follow if they choose to conduct a background check for a private sale.

You, the seller/transferor, bring the weapon to any dealer that agrees to facilitate the sale or transfer. The dealer conducts an instant background check of the buyer/transferee—the same check run for all retail firearm sales. The dealer may not charge more than $10 for this service.

You may visit the dealer along with the buyer/transferee and complete the sale or transfer together, or you may leave your firearm with the dealer to complete the sale or transfer on your behalf.


Some more...I have two cap & ball revolvers mounted on the wall of my PC room here; perfectly legal, no permit required, K-Mart used to sell them...But if I have cap, ball, and powder for them, I am required to have them added to my pistol permit...With NICS check...

Welcome to New York! We hope you brought money!

I wish I had thought of this. I had the cash in my pocket, and wanted to buy the pistol (a bolo), but I didn't want another "project." I already own a few of those. I am capable of breaking it down and putting it back together, but obviously the seller doesn't know me from Adam. This was the first time I've asked anyone at a gun show if I could, and since I seemed to have suprised him so, I wondered if that's not something you ask.
BTW, here in CA the FFL's are required to collect the sales tax from private sales.
Marc

Anyone have recent work done by the Broom Closet? I would like to send another one to them but can only find a phone number, no Internet presence.
Marc

The darn thing is called "Schnellfeuer". It's the last variation of Mauser C96. Most were sold to China. But it's a gun produced in relatively high volume of near six digit, so they still show up on market from time to time today.

From some memoirs, it's selective firing, but it's still mainly used as a semi-auto. In emergency the operator could fire it in short-burst mode, it's superior and useful. For example, a running guy being chased by an enemy in close quarter at night, accurate aiming on the chaser was impossible, so he fired 3-4 rounds at the rough direction towards the chaser. In this scenario, it's much more effective than semi-auto.

There was one for sale at Waffen Bavaria in Munchen back in the mid-80's when I was there; price was ~$750 USD, IIRC...

I thought I'd read that it was used in WW I as a 'trench sweeper', with stock attached, by the Sturm Battalions... :confused:

Schnellfeuers were reissued to the Waffen SS in World War 2. Although many were made, correct, registered and transferrable models are a rarety here in the US. They usually command upwards of $10,000 when offered for sale.

Eric, I must have missed something in your gun show story. It is not illegal to sell an automatic pistol outside a gun show in Florida. Unless you meant "fully automatic". Florida does not require you to be an FFL to rent a table and sell guns at local gun shows. Many people wishing to liquidate personal collections take this route. If you do this routinely, (buy and sell as a gun show regular) without an FFL and/or Tax ID, you are more likely to get a visit from the IRS than from the ATF.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=346632456

heres the link to the select fire broom handle.

The production volume was near six digit. The price varies from time to time. Fully transferable ones are rare in U.S. and are expensive. A few were sold above $10,000 recently (including a rare Nickl). But I saw some of dealer-only samples offered online did not sell at $6000. Since it's a class III weapon, many collectors have to bypass it to avoid some class III related headache. There is an extra "legal fee" associated with this type of gun. I believe same is true for other class III guns.

i don't think that Marc is in New York, so not to sure what this means? Most states are not like this, in Tulsa, in Florida, you buy a gun from a private individual and its yours.

Here in Pennsylvania, handguns go through FFL (dealer or theirs) but rifles and shotguns, no issue.

I do not let anyone at a show (unless I know them and their experience) take anything apart. Various reasons - 1) too many tire kickers, 2) sometimes they do not or cannot put it back together, 3) sometimes they don't know how to take it apart, 4) Having to watch them closely leaves one open to problems from their friends or others. Some where else - might be different.

You might qualify as a dealer depending on your selling habits/methods/frequency etc. This can vary from state to state.

And a record is kept of the buyer's name, and the model and serial number of the pistol.

I would really like to own that handgun.......all I need now is the cash!!

No "Legal Fee" just a "Tax Fee" of $200, if you live in an area where you are allowed to own Title 2 stuff. ("Class 3" is a misnomer. These items are better referred to as Title 2 or simply NFA items).
The posted Schnellfeuer is a little overpriced for a Pre May Dealer Sample. I would expect a fully transferrable to go for this kind of money.

Thanks for the info. Personally, I have to bypass Machine Pistols. But each collector's situation is different, this gun has a special position in pistol development, and if possible, owning a Schnellfeuer will be great!

A fully transferable SF was sold recently for $14,950:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/auction...?ItemId=122168

I fired a Schnell years ago. They have a big switch n the side.
So impractical its hard to believe so many were made.
Hard to get less than about a 4-5 round burst and those all over the place.

In the "old" days gunshow parking lots were fabulous places, but the feds were lurking.
Old childhood friend did that for years-they were mostly looking to build cases and bust habitual offenders.
They were watching a lot of people. I always thought my friend had got caught and turned rat to save himself. He and his handler tried to recruit me when I got out of the army, but that behaviour was short of my standards.

At gun shows around here in CA, there are two types of sellers, those with an FFL and those without. I don't know what "dealer" implies. If the guy selling the hand gun or newer than 50 year old rifle is not an FFL, the two of you walk over to the table of FFLs and complete your transaction and you get your gun in ten days from the FFL. If your buying a C&R long gun from a non-FFL, then cash and carry. If the C&R long gun seller is an FFL, then wait ten days.
Next year there will be no cash and carry of anything in CA, so old long rifles are commanding top $$$ right now. Most of the tables are non-FFLs at the shows I've seen, but I don't spend any time looking at the new stuff either.
Marc

All of these are true. Buying at a gun show then becomes more of a gamble than an Internet purchase, because most online sellers at least give you an "inspection" period.
Ok to ask if you can, but don't expect to be allowed to I guess is the right attitude.
Marc

It is a gamble because of the 4 reasons I mentioned. A person can ask, but there is no way to know if a person falls into one of the above ahead of time. So why create problems for your self.

As to internet sellers giving an inspection, many say that no dis-assembly is allowed.

No disassembly allowed? I saw dfwarms.com having that clause in terms of sales.

His items are expensive ones, I can partially understand his concerns. Viewers seriously interested in an item simply need to ask him to disassemble it before paying $$ :)

I never had any problems disassembling Broomhandles. No one ever even showed me but I did have a exploded view.

I always found the hubbub over taking them apart amusing.
My first Broomhandle was the second pistol I had, after a 7,65 Luger ( some 1920's sort).

I remember being at a gun show in Mountain View ( Ca ) in the early 1980s at which a seller was perplexed how to put a Broomhandle back together. I took care of that right quickly.

I solved that conundrum that rarely occurs when someone reassembles one with an incorrectly assembled lock. It's just a matter of applying pressure and pulling on several parts at the same time. I remember walking someone through it on the old Yahoo newsgroup.

Broomhandles are fun, I just don't shoot any of mine any longer... No shootee - no breakee...


Jerry

I always found the hubbub over taking them apart amusing. Yes..I agree, it's really funny for the average guy who takes one of these apart. The laughable part is when the monstrosity of weird parts gets stuck and no matter what you do it cannot be forced apart. OH! And another hilarious part of these pistols is the sharp angular edges and points all over them! Kind of like brushing a cat's teeth or giving a big feral tom cat a manicure. The last time..and I mean last time I monkeyed with one of these my hands looked like I stuck them in a tigers cage about lunch time.
A Luger or any John Browning designed pistol is like picking up a stick of butter over a piece of cholla cactus.
I almost forgot the funniest part! It's actually possible for the top end of these pistols to come completely off and hit you in the face!! That's if it doesn't hit your funnybone first! As much of a laugh riot as these pistols are..after owning a half dozen I went back to my Lugers.

It took me years to realize that you have to pull back the top portion to move the takedown. Since my stroke I'm lousy at directions..PS Thank Jerry!

You would be surprised at the number of people who cannot put a Hi Power back together.

Charlie..I bet! I pride myself on my mechanical ability. I have dis assembled Browing A5 Automatic shotguns many times and because parts can fall out when a pin is pushed you don't know for sure exactly how they go back..Everything has to go somewhere though..Certain guns are a challenge and I find the C96 not so much a challenge but just irritating in it's whole method of construction.

The only HP's I have are Englis..Someday I hope to find a good pre 45 German one I can afford! I assure you... taking a HP apart is a joy and a pleasure compared to a C96!

Try a fully automatic BAR or Browning 1919A4 sometime. They are really complex.

Doug..I would dearly love to! I have always thought a really cool museum would be full of firearms you could take down and put back together. I guess that was called the Army.

Back a few years ago, I paid an online course teaching how to repair watches. After the course, I bought a"watch repairing kit" from the tutor, including a movement for practicing purpose. Soon, I found the hardest part in practice -- the floor was a black hole, if a tiny component flew out during disassembly, it's simply impossible to find it any more.