C96 value?
 

i've recently inherited a c96 and would like to insure it, but i'm uncertain to the value. i've gotten conflicting reports from gun stores and the insurer, so i figure i should ask collectors what may be appropriate.

all parts have matching serial numbers (frame, bolt, hammer, et c). some small parts (safety, extractor, et c) are salt blue. the finish is original as far as i know (never any record of rebluing). the grips are serial numbered to the gun (stamped). there is no prussian eagle on the front of the magazine, but the other marks are quite visible. surface rust on most of it, unfortunately, but fully functioning otherwise. bore is clean without pits or rust, but not bright. strong rifling. the green bits you may see are fuzz from the blanket. haven't had a chance to do anything but examine, photograph, and oil.

any help is greatly appreciated.

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I might be mistaken, but my eye tells me gently buffed and reblued some time ago. It would help if all the oil and fuzz was removed an additional photos provided.

9mm; 50-500 sights; grips look good; pitting, but photos often exaggerate pits; I would agree with Doug that the bluing is too good to be original, more of it should have oxidized into brown-ish 'patina'...The high wear spots aren't worn enough...Edges that should be sharp are slightly rounded [the 'gently buffed' Doug mentioned]...Impact area behind locking bolt is good, with the anemic 9mm, that's normal...

I have a couple Mausers, and although Alvin is the person I listen to concerning Mausers, I would say ~$700-$750 for a pitted 9mm...If I was buying...maybe ~$800-$850 if I was selling...

IMHO, the 7.63mm Broomhandles are more desirable than the 9mm's...And the full-size C96/M30 more desirable than the Bolos...

Insure for whatever Simpsons lists for a nice 9mm C96, as that's what you'll want if it needs replacement...

BTW: Several knowledgeable members of this forum can not see and therefore won't comment on your Mauser because they work for corporations (or the government) who provide their Internet access for them but filter out or block social media sites like PhotoBucket, YouTube, SmugMug, TinyPic, Google+, Flickr, etc...If you want a rounded selection of opinions, attach your pics right here, to your thread...

...And take pics outside on a cloudy day [indirect light, no flash]... ;)

...Just my $.02...

As Rich mentioned. It is important to know if your sights aré 1000 meter or ?500 meter sights

Doug, as Alvin pointed out, the 50-500 sight ramps are straight; the 50-1000 are curved...(The ones above are straight)...
Pic attached...Of course, over the years, sight leafs get swapped, 9mm & 7.63 graduations changed...Even the FN Mauser carbine sight leaf will fit...

I don't know offhand what the Bolo uses; probably the 50-500 sights...

they are 500 meter tangent sights. the edges are quite sharp in person, actually, but yes i will take better photos once it is daylight on the patio where lighting is more even and brighter.

I mentioned that the FN Mauser carbine (the K98 rifle/carbine clone; not the pistol) rear sight will fit the Broomhandle; here's a comparison pic of the 50-1000 sight and the FN carbine sight...The leaf, slider, and flat spring will all fit the Broomhandle (some minor hand fitting may be required)...

1400 meter Broomhandle... :D Well, it's no more optimistic than an Artillery Luger... ;)

I've fitted one of these to my long-barreled C96 wildcat; I'm sure others have done the same...Original C96 50-1000 sights are difficult to find, for some reason... :confused:

In my opinion, the gun is in original condition.
Pictures can be deceiving when evaluating finish. Pictures under indirect natural light are the best choice for a better evaluation.

i've taken some better pictures this morning and removed the fuzz and whatnot. apologies for the poor quality from earlier.

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I would agree that the finish is original, based on the new photos.

No kidding. How can this be original finish. But, don't be frustrated. Value depends on viewers. At least, it's a genuine German made 9mm. Back a few days ago, a converted 9mm (from 7,63mm) in refurbished mode attracted bidding at $2000 on gunbroker.com. And, there were more than one bidder.... Fortunately (or unfortunately ??), $2000 was still lower than seller's reserve. But the gun disappeared, probably bidder and seller compromised and settled somewhere slightly higher than $2000? God knows.

Given 9mm "Selbstlader" marked (in five Hanji) assembled from Schnellfeuer parts in 1980s steadily goes around $1200 nowadays, refurbished vs refurbished, this Red 9's value should be a little bit higher that, IMO. But many players were attracted by the removable magazine, and your Red 9 is fixed magazine, that's a disadvantage on your gun. So, that reference dollar number may not work.

so it is or isn't an original finish? to my knowledge, it's had this finish since the mid 40's, when my grandfather acquired it from France, prior to that i'm unsure. $1200 a good insurance value? to be clear, it is a 5.5" barrel (measured with a dowel). i have no plans to sell; the value is for insurance paperwork, which must be at "fair market value" and can be adjusted later in claims. this, along with a few other firearms are family heirlooms. thank you so much everyone.

is it normal for small parts to have that iridescent oily look? it's on most small parts, including the extractor, safety, tangent sight, and a few others.

Yes, these parts are fire blued and will have that rainbow blue look to them.

Chaz, I think $1200 is probably on the low side of the retail range. Were you to replace it today, I suspect you'd be paying closer to $1800. For a wartime gun, it appears to be in excellent condition, uncommon in these old timers. If you visit GunsAmerica or GunBroker, you can search for similar Broomhandles or Mauser pistols and make your own comparisons.
You have a wonderful family treasure on your hands. If there were any stories about how your Grandfather got the gun, write them down and keep them with the gun. They are part of your Grandfather's history during the war.

Regards,
John

Alvin,
You are the resident expert here, but your comment is confusing. Do you believe the gun has its original finish or not?

Dip refinished on the frame and barrel based on the massive pitting under the blue.

This red 9 was non-professionally reblued. I am not an expert, but I have seen many Broomhandles on the internet. Thanks for the internet, otherwise, people like me won't have time, money, and energy to run around the country to join all those gun shows. Internet online auction is a big gun show everyday :)

i wonder when it was refinished then, as i understand it, it has never been refinished since the 1940's, and been held in storage since then. a friend, from his experiences with mostly colt revolvers, has mentioned that it doesn't appear to be rounded and stampings and edges are still "flat where flat and round where round", whatever that means. honestly i'm not much of an older firearm person, my personal arms are generally the more modern offerings, but i know quality when i see it.

thank you everyone. i think i'll tell the insurer $1500 and split the difference, unless that's too low. i find the pricing from simpsons ltd and others to be inconsistent.

Alvin
What is the 6 pointed star stamping on the bottom of the barrel signify?
Thanks
Bob

Only factory record can answer it accurately. I don't know. I guess it signifies an inspection step in barrel making. After major parts were made, they must be inspected for some key parameters before being sent to final assembly line for parts fitting (headspace? rifling? front sight height? God knows). There is an Imperial Acceptance Stamp on the right side of the chamber, but that's "final examination", long before the whole gun reached to that stage, I assume there were many "quizzes" along the way on major parts manufacturing, so defects on individual parts could be found and corrected early. Comparing with other parts, barrel markings are busy, due to it's the most important component on the gun directly affecting performance.

Just a guesstimation. Mauro and Vlim had Mauser document. They probably can offer more information on Mauser's manufacturing and QA process.

I have to agree with those who deemed it reblued; either that or the person charged with buffing parts at Mauser that day had had a bad night. The chamber flats don't appear crisp enough to me. It takes real discipline not to go hog wild on that area.

That reddish twinge I see in some areas might just be old lubricant but I doubt that. Odd about the site ramps.

I feel out of practice, I should haul out some of mine to compare.

Jerry

it would be very helpful to determine if it has been reblued or not. little difference to me, but significant to the insurer.

also i have noted where i have seen partial or complete serial numbers: bolt, hammer, bolt stop, bolt lock, grips, slide, upper left chamber, floorplate, disconnector, sear

See, storing many guns @home could be a headache.

No gun dealers sell "gun certificate"? Say, a C96, a buyer pay $1200 for it, but instead of taking delivery of the physical gun, the buyer receives a owner certificate. So the buyer owns a "virtual gun". If buyer decides to take the delivery, the dealer will send to him adding shipping cost. But that's optional.

Finally, if collector wants, the collection is papers with the gun picture, s/n, etc printed on it, which can be easily carried and stored in a deposit box. Sounds crazy. But that's an advanced business model. Gun transaction is too primitive.

===

The sear (long part blocking the hammer) on this variation is not supposed to be numbered.

I may be incorrect about the sear then - it's a piece that fits between the locking lug in the slide and the top of the bit that fits in the frame. the front part of it is a knob that interacts with the hammer spring i believe.

The formal name for that component is "bolt lock", which plays a central role in C96 mechanism. It's numbered.

I wondered which gun is more accurate the Mauser or luger? ~~~ Eric

If we are talking practical accuracy versus inherent accuracy, I would say the following:

If both unstocked, I would have to say the Luger. C96's are muzzle heavy and the "broomhandle" grip is less than ergonomic. The bulk of the pistol sits above the balance point of the shooter's hand.

There is nothing like a Luger for natural pointability and ergonomics.

Does the attached stock affect your opinion?

I would respectfully disagree, but if true, it is accidental. Georg Luger was short and stout and had stubby fingers. When he redesigned Hugo Borchardt's 1909 Borchardt, Borchardt had already put the mainspring in the grip. But he retained the 7.65 x 25 cartridge. The resulting grip was too 'fat' for Luger's stubby fingers, so he shortened the Borchardt cartridge to 7.65 x 21. It was still too 'fat', so Luger came up with the idea of 'tilting' the magazine, thereby giving it a thinner vertical dimension. The grip frame was 'tilted' (and lengthened) as well to accommodate it. There is some question if it was 'tilted' first or the cartridge shortened first, but the end result was the same.

The 1909 Borchardt seems to have disappeared...A shame, as it is an important link in the development of the Borchardt, and consequently the Luger... :(

Accidental or not, I still think it is true.

Look at a target. Close your eyes and bring a Luger up and point at where you remember the target to be, then open your eyes.

It is unusual if your are not close to dead on as far as where you are pointing the pistol. Few pistols can replicate this natural point.

Eric, I think both pistols would be evenly matched with stocks, given similar barrel lengths, with perhaps a slight advantage to the broomy, given the better sight length.

Exactly my point. The Luger will be pointing way too high. There are people who claim the M1911 is too 'fat' for their grip, I suspect that these are the same people who think the Luger 'instinctively' points 'on target'... :rolleyes:

The accuracy is a myth. Be honest, it's hard to shoot C96 well without stock attached. But some people could do it well. Numerous memoirs recorded an old game: putting a small bawl on a unlucky guy's head, an operator shot the bawl off hand at "20-step" distance (don't try that yourself).

This type of story usually went in this context: say, one guy wanted to join a bandit group, bandit leader asking things like 'are you bold enough? standing in the yard, I will give you a test'..... the rest of story was described above.

Say, this guy was not scared. Next step was also challenging -- 'do you have an enemy? yes? here is a broomhandle, kill him and come back'. After this guy really killed someone, he could not drop any more. Tough environment, not easy.