I Give Up on the P08
 

My original all-matching 1937 HK shooter is consistently short-stroking even with a fresh Wolff 36# mainspring. To date, the only 4" Luger ever to work for me has been a 1906 AE with a palpably tired mainspring. I don't know how y'all manage to empty a full P08 magazine without a failure to cycle. Henceforth all my Luger shooting will be in 7.65 Para with 1900 DWM, 06/29 W+F, and 06/35 Mauser variants, with 9mm Para relegated to LP08. Never a problem with these pieces.

Michael, don't know what to tell you, sometimes its the magazine and sometimes its Lord knows what :)

I don't shoot enough to give advice, except to say the artillery I bought years ago / reblued, buffed bad and completely reliable, which I can't say with many others lugers I have owned.

I thought of trying Wolff's 10% heavier mag springs, but they won't be any good for a short-stroking canon assembly. I could go to 40# springs and NATO spec ammo, but that would be dead wrong. My favorite Luger operation theory, as confirmed by my experience with Artillery models, especially with the board stock attached, is that 9mm Para requires more inertia in the canon than is contributed by a standard profile 4" tube. Pretty much everyone who shoots these guns competitively in Old Europe, uses a heavier barrel. I look forward to trying a 6" Werle-built piece that I have coming in from Germany.

I have shot about 15 different lugers, and only 1 mixmaster gave me any real problems. A firm wrist/grip is esential, as "limp wristing" will absorb some of the toggles enertia, causing what you describe. My opinion is parts guns may need some tinkering, with parts being hand fit originally. John

I went thru a lot with 4" 9mm guns as we were trying to find a good cast bullet load. Seemed like no 4" gun liked them, however the Artillery and Navy models would shoot them. Send one gun to Lugerdoc, who shot it (with factory ammo I'm sure) and he sent it back as good to go. Still wouldn't shoot the cast bullet loads but would run with S&B 115 fmj.
Then I switched all my loads to 115 FMJ (back when you could still find them...) and all has been well since.
It seems to have been an issue of pressure and sufficient recoil that made the difference, however the same load/powder was used in both instances.
So to make a long story shorter, it was the ammo for me that made the difference. The right ammo and even my 4" Lugers have become quite reliable.
And I am now forced to go back to cast bullets, so the circle of frustration begins once again.
dju

I shoot about 1000 rounds of factory centerfire ammo a month, most of it factory FMJ in 9mm Para and .357 Magnum. I get lots of free hollowpoint ammo from a friend in civil service, but my religion forbids me to squander it at the range, and it's no good in a Luger anyway. My 7.65 Para guns have the most latitude, ranging from anemic Fiocchi to peppy Norma loads. The Artilleries work fine with WWB and S&B, and don't seem to mind Blaser or Federal. Nothing works in the 4" P08. Yes, I have gone through every spring configuration. No, I'm not limp-wristing.

Heard this before Michael?
 

All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett
:cheers:

You could always send it to LugerDoc or Thor, who will make it work for you...

advanced troubleshootng......
 

Michael, when ever we had, seemingly unsolvable, troublesome units we would take a known working unit and switch parts one at a time, until we found or eliminated the item that was deficient... as in, try your cannon ass'y on a different frame, etc. etc..., I know you have some of my upgraded mags and these will work in any P.08, but switch them out also, as it can still be anything... I will send you original replacement mainsprings if you need something different to try... But, WWB ammo should be your baseline... If a Luger works, it will work with WWB ammo. Change one thing at a time, make your test parameters the same evey time... fail better! :jumper: you can't give up, you're just getting started... best to you, til...lat'r....GT:cheers:

Michael,

What symptoms is your luger exhibiting that leads you to think it is short stroking? The reason I'm asking is that in lugers, a mainspring that is too weak can exhibit behavior that in other guns would be a sign of short stroking. If the mainspring is too weak (or ammo too hot) a luger can fail to lock open or fail to pick up a round from the magazine because the action is cycling too quickly.

Anyway, just wondering about what you are seeing....

I understand short-stroking as a stoppage caused by the breech failing to retract far enough to eject the spent case. All my Lugers are original. In my experience, action parts don't interchange even on W+F and HK Lugers allegedly made to be amenable to mixing and matching.

I ve gotta put my two cents into . I can also be a week spring in the magazine that causes the problem you are having. Try different magazines until one works well for you.

Matching Part #'s even in a Krieghoff doesn't guarantee smoothness. Does the breechblock travel smoothely in the upper receiver if the sear is removed? Or does it bind anywhere? Be generous with gun oil in those grooves. Does the stripped upper receiver travel easily in the frame? Any problem with ejection with or without a magazine iinserted? Try removing the left grip. The interior of the grip may be rubbing on the mag button wth just enough drag to slow down the follower so it misses the feed timing cycle causing a failure to feed.

And if you are certain that there is insufficient pressure/recoil, how about experimenting with some +p rounds? I understand that they are universally discouraged for Luger's, but it may help you to find the true root of your problems in just a couple of shots.
Don't forget about sending the recalcitrant P08 to the LugerDoc and have him breath on it. It doesn't cost much and it may spare you some headaches.
Good mag, plenty of oil, tight grip, good ammo. And remember to hold your mouth just right...
dju

I tried that on a 1997 Frankonia refurbished Mauser P08, obtaining the same result with brand new, factory spec springs all around. Maybe my mouth is remiss.

Got'ta be it...
dju

Michael,
Try the 'tape test'. Put a piece of freezer tape on the back of the frame, where the rear toggle hits during full recoil. When the main spring and ammo are "in tune", the tape should have a dent in it. If the tape is smashed and cut through, the ammo is too hot or the main spring is too weak. No dent means weak ammo or the main spring is too strong.
There are other things to consider as the other members have suggested but at least you can see how the toggles are reacting.

My experience in shooting over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military is that some shoot fine every time and some don't. I too gave up on "fixing" a bad one. Just find a "good" one and enjoy.

I have well over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military. The only ones that shoot fine every time are the LP08 Artilleries and 7.65 Para guns, the DWM 1900 and three W+F 06/29 in the standard issue and National Match configurations. My present frustration is with trying to tune a P08 with a Wolff spring kit, where none of the available combinations makes for reliable cycling of WWB and its likes. I will try a box of NATO loads, but they don't make for a long term solution in a Luger.

Try some of the steel case Tula if you haven't already.

Mike;

Get hold of a copy of George W. Wilson's wonderful little book "Luger Shooting". I believe it is also an internet booklet, now, as well. In it, he explains, in detail, the proper functioning of the System Luger.

From my 47 years of 9 mm Luger shooting, here are the causes of the famous "Luger Jam":

Ammo is too strong (usually the case).

Ammo is too weak (usually not the case).

O.A.L. of ammo is too short for proper feeding through the magazine (this is the number one Parabellum performance killer). This spec. is absolutely critical to proper function!!! IF THIS SPEC. IS MATERIALLY OFF, A LUGER CAN NOT BE EXPECTED TO FUNCTION PROPERLY!!! Original German Luger ammo was loaded out, for round nose, to 1.173 inches, (29.8mms), for conical flat point, to 1.142 inches, (29 mms). As you will see, if you measure them, modern commercial 9 mm ammo is loaded much, much too shortly to ever properly fuction in a Luger!

Bullet configuration is incorrect for the magazine interior or feeding ramp. Many modern Hollow Point bullets work perfectly, many just do not.

Magazine spring is too weak (usually not the case).

Magazine lips are bent or have been "modified" in the past.

Recoil spring is either too light or too heavy (usually not the case), or has been "Ba Ba" in the past (usually the case). I might add, that a spring will, indeed, fail, especially after 68 years, minimum, of service. Please do remember that the original DWM contract, with the German government, gave a full three years warranty as to parts and labor, ha!!!

Do you handload? Why do I ask? Because there is NOTHING commercially avalable that is true to the original, German, 9 mm specs.; though 124 grain S&B is pretty close and it is accurate in a Luger (though the O.A.L. of this ammo is still too short for absolutely trustworthy function). The WWB stuff just doesn't cut it for me, as it is not accurate in a Luger, at all, and is also too short.

Here is "the load" for the 4 inch 9mm Parabellum (100% trustworthy in function and deadly accurate):

WW's Commercial Cases (new, not used).
Remington's 1 1/2 Primers.
5.4 grains of Power Pistol Powder (for me, the very best 9 mm powder, to date).
Hornady's 124 grain FMJFP bullets (this is the famous "Airforce Bullet" designed for our military's use).
With this bullet, an O.A.L. of 1.13 inches (28.7 mms) is just perfect. This spec. is absolutely critical to trustworthy function!

With the aforementioned load, I have fired over one thousand rounds, each, thorugh both my 1917 DWM and byf (Mauser) 1941 without a SINGLE JAM OF ANY KIND!! In fact, the 1917 has fired over three thousand rounds without a jam!!

By yourself a couple of new Mec Gar magazines, put back the original recoil spring, unless someone has already "modified" it, (if that is the case, the Wolff 38 pounder should work just fine), handload 100 rounds to the above specs., and go to the range and shoot your 9mm Luger, that WILL now function just like your 7.65 mms do.


Sieger

P.S. The 9 mm Pistole Parabellum was in German military service for over 40 years. Had the 9 mm Pistole Parabellum not been a trustworthy system, I doubt that It would have survived "The Great War", let alone surviving though the Second World War.

There is something very wrong here.

Sieger

Dave:

You should try some lead cast bullets, out of the RCBS 121 grain Truncated Cone mold, with an O.A.L. of 1.142 inches (29 mms) and sized to .356 inches. For me, the best powder to date has been Accurate #5 (very accurate).

Lugers are "timed" for bullets between 115 grains and 130 grains. Other weights may or may not function trustworthly.

Sieger

Dave:

Typically the "Luger Jam" is not an ejection problem, but rather, a hang-up with the next round stuck partially up the feed ramp. Is this your problem?

Your extractor spring could be too weak, but not in a dozen different pistols.


Sieger

Ouch!!!


Sieger

Steel vs. Brass cased ammo torture test:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...mmo/#bookmark0

Not lugers, but a lot of great info obtained through exhaustive testing.

Jack

That may well be the typical issue, but in my case the problem is clearly an instance of short-stroking suggestive of excessive mainspring rate even with a 36 pound spring in place.

...???...What are you referring to here??? :confused:

Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

Mike:

Please take a look at the specs. of the ammo you are shooting, as what you are suggesting as the problem seems almost impossible to me, given the "hotness" of modern 9 mm ammo.

Original DWM specs.: 123 grain bullet at 1,076 fps.

WWB specs.: 115 grain bullet at 1,190 fps.

NATO Military spec.: 121 grain bullet at 1,260 fps.

What you are suggesting as the problem should be just the opposite, that being, that hotter ammo should need a heavier spring, not a lighter one. Make sense?

Thanks!


Sieger

Skeeter:

I bet you can fire a magazine loaded with only 5 round with no problem at all.


Sieger

Rcbs....
 

Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also...:).... best to you, til..lat'r...GT:cheers:

First off, I am not Dave. Secondly, the Luger toggle action reciprocates in proportion to the bullet's momentum, not its muzzle energy. That's why WWB works so well with the original spring rates -- for everyone else, but not for me.

Hi:

Please reread my modified posting above.

Thanks!


Sieger

GT:

The Lyman has much too short of a bearing surface, as compared to the one caliber bearing surface of the RCBS mold. This causes the Lyman bullet to "jump" to the rifling,vs, being right on it. Accuracy is much better for me with the RCBS mold.

Sieger

Mike:

Sorry I screwed-up your first name, but these things just happen sometimes.

The figures I quoted above are not the muzzle energy of the bullets, but rather, their velocity.

I'm very sorry, but I don't agree with you, as NATO spec. ammo will peen the heck out of the back of your breach block, whereas, proper spec. ammo, will not. Obviously, the breach block is moving much faster with the NATO spec. ammo and with much more rearward force.

Given the same weight bullet, as you add more velocity to the bullet, the momentum of that bullet increases accordingly.


Sieger

You aren't disagreeing with me. If you do the math, NATO spec ammo has about 20% more momentum than the original DWM loading, whereas the momentum of WWB is approximately its equal.

Yes, that does make a bit more sense... :thumbup:

Have you tried the 124gr FMJ truncated cone Hornady bullets??? I used them in my 357 AMP and 38/45 Clerke cartridges...

Postino:

Yes, the Hornady 124 grain FMJFP bullet is one of my favorites for the 9mm Luger pistol!!!

This particular bullet ("called the Air Force Bullet") was developed for our military, some 30 years or so ago, back when they were considering the adoption of a 9 mm pistol.

In a Luger, if loaded to 28.7 mm of O.A.L., this one functions the action perfectly, and is highly accurate!

By the way, I've seen data for the RCBS Lead 121 TC bullet, for the .38 Super, well into the 1,200 fps range, so it might be interesting for you to try them with the two fine cartridges you have mentioned above.


Sieger

I am informed by the Sales Dept at Hornady that the 3556 FMJ-FP bullet in 100 count boxes has been discontinued -

Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately our SKU#3556 9mm 124gr FMJ-FP Bullet in the 100 count box has been discontinued. We suggest that you might look for SKU#35567B 9mm 124gr FMJ-FP Bullet in the 2900 count box.

Thank you again.

Hornady Sales Team

Phone 1-800-338-3220

I am wondering if there is enough interest in a 'group buy' for the 2900 count box...

Item Number 35567B
Ballistic Coefficient (G1) .160
Sectional Density .141
Quantity 2,900/Case
Price: $360.33

That works out to roughly $12.50 for 100 bullets...

You can still find odd lots of the 3556 bullets on GB, but not with any regularity...And the big dealers show the 2900 box as Out Of Stock... :(

Mike:

I've been looking, for thirty years, in original period German materials, from the 1920s through 1950s, and have never found a hotter load, in 123 grain configuration, than the 1,076 fps. load discussed above.

I believe the existance of the famous "German hotter load", needed to properly function a 9 mm Luger, is nothing more than a constantly repeated myth, with no basis in verifiable fact whatsoever, and a very distructive one at that!

Yes, armor piercing "hotter loads" were made for the MP-38 and MP-40, with much lighter bullets and of iron core construction for better performance, but these were restricted for pistol usage (most, if not all of them, having steel lacered cases, etc.).

If any of our members can provide me with verifiabe German source documentation to prove otherwise, I'd really like to get a copy of it.

As to modern NATO spec. ammo, I value my Lugers too much as to ruin them, over time, by shooting such loads, as these are, indeed, +P loads.


Sieger