Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

Drove over to San Mateo, CA a few days ago to visit KrauseWerks and the home of the custom-made .45 cal. Lugers...


Mike Krause' shop is full of all sorts of guns, swords, militaria, etc.


Had 5-6 lugers on hand for sale, but I restrained myself.


Did get to see one of his really nice .45 lugers, in person, though...this was the highlight of the trip...I did not have the courage to ask "how much"...however...

Re: Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

Once again, I'm about to reveal the shallowness of my firearms knowledge, but why is it so difficult to make a luger in .45? Parts are bigger therefore stronger, muzzel velocity and chamber pressures are weaker (I'm guesing), the .45 has been around nearly as long as the 9mm so there aren't any surprises and the Luger design is no new comer either, is it the machining, custom work, or what? Or is it the supply and demand factor? Erma made the 22s. Or us there a self evident truth I'm failing to comprehend?


Roadkill

Here's the situation! ..........
 

Hi Roadkill! It's all about quality.....and difficulty....and cost..... I have fabricated some of the more simple parts for the Luger, and they are designed in such a way, that no matter what technology you use, it requires many secondary & hand operations!!! To put it simply, "it ain't easy, and it ain't cheap"! This .45 Luger pistol that is made by Krause, is incredible!!!! I've held it in my hand......if you like Porche, BMW, Zeiss, Hensoldt, Mauser...etc....It makes it easier to understand! Hope this helps!! till...later....G.T.

Re: Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

45 auto and 9 mm velocities are almost the same. The 9 mm cup pressures are generally higher than the 45 auto, almost twice. The bugaboo is recoil energy, almost twice as high in the 45 auto because of the bullet weight. Look at the mass that is recoiling in a Browning style 45 auto, the barrel and the massive slide and breech block. In the Luger you have the barrel and toggle only, and the toggle relies on clobbering the frame to break open.

Re: Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

Makes sense. Is the design not so strong in the Luger that the transfer of recoil energy is in two stages (toggle to spring pulling up)vs the Browning design of straight spring compression? I took the mainspring out of mine once (won't do that again) and it seemed to be much stronger than in a .45/9mm ect design. But then the main spring on the Browning designs wasn't compressed while I was trying to take it apart either. My hands have almost healed up. What about adding an additional straight line compression spring behind the bolt?


Roadkill

Krause Vs. Martz .45 Luger Differences...
 

Forgot to mention :


When I asked Mike how he makes his guns, compared to the John Martz .45 luger; Mike said his are made from new forgings/castings while the Martz guns were made up from 2 existing lugers...


I am certainly not one to know the pros & cons of each; but thought I would pass this info. on...


The .45 luger felt like a luger on steroids in hand...!

Re: Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

How does Krauseworks 45"5 differ from those of Martz?

I know that Martz makes his from two lugers and fabricates some of the parts. Same for krauseworks or are his fron scratch?

Neil

Re: Visit To KrauseWerks...
 

Krause Lugers are made up completly from scratch and from what I understand from the orignal Georg design.


ed

Re: The Krausewerk .45 Luger is made from scratch!
 

That is one beautiful gun.


Roadkill

Re: Only One Right?
 

John, it is my understanding that there was two to start out the U.S. trials but one was destroyed in testing and today only one exists...Did I read your post wrong or is there something I don't know? All Smiles , Jerry

Re: Only One Right?
 

there is a second remaining by some accounts, in a museum in Shreveport LA I AM TOLD! Dont shoot the messanger, wink wink (Still love that baby Holster and now Don and I are good friend thanks to you Jerry, I appreciate it) Thor

Re: Only One Right?
 

Ted, Not the old, I saw one in a museum somewhere! No, seriously I am sure it is possible but I have never heard of it myself. I would love to authenticate such a find. If anyone knows of this for sure and can put a name to it please let me know. I still look at photos of your baby holster and am amazed I made it. It was such a lot of work that I have not been anxious to make another. Good thing you were first Ted! Yes Don Hamilton is a great guy and I knew you two would get along. He was very impressed with the work you did on his pistol. Along with every one else! Jerry Burney

Re: Only One Right?
 

Jerry, there have been MANY discussions about this and I believe one or two of the forum regulars have SEEN it. John Sabato has a pretty good handle on it and I sure he will have much to say about it so I will butt out for a while. I would love to know if Charlie Kenyon or Still has looked at it up close and personal. I seem to remember Johnny Peppers had a lot to say about it too! I will watch and maybe remember more of what is going to be said about it. I have "oldtimers" some times or CRS (Can't Remember Stuff) ~Thor~

Re: Baby Luger holster
 

Jerry, it is pretty damn nice holster! Dok is Jjjjjjuuuuusssssttttt......about done with the presentation case so I am getting excited! Hugh has a big back log of Babies and he has figured a way to do the frames better and faster so look out! Those requests mmmmmay be coming soon! Thor

Re: Baby Luger holster
 

Ted, I forgot to ask about your baby pistol! It's been so long I guess I assumed it was done. But then I guess we would have seen it on the Forum! I am so busy with holster repair I don't know when I would fit any more baby Luger holsters in. Jerry Burney

Re: Baby Luger holster
 

I have seen the .45 Luger in the Norton Gallery in Shreveport, Louisiana, on several trips to the gallery. John Sabato has been in touch with the gallery director, and I believe might have obtained additional information on the pistol. The pistol was bought by Harry Jones and sold to Mr. R.W. Norton sometime in the 1960/70 time frame. Somewhere Harry Jones recounts how he and Mr. Norton took the pistol out and shot it to their hearts content.

There is also a picture of this .45 Luger in Edward Scott Meadow's book "U.S.Military Automatic Pistols" on page 381.

The pistol is on public display for any that doubt it's existence.

Re: 45 Luger in TEXAS
 

I do remember some of that but only after you repeated it Johnny! Wouldn't that shooting sesssion be fun to have gone on! Thor

45 Luger
 

Two of the 3 originals still exist; one was on display at the Missouri Valley Arms Collectors Show in KC in '99. It was in a plexiglass case bolted to the table with a photograph of a turn of the century uniformed Army officer holding it or one of the trio in the raised pistol position.


Tom

I would love to have a copy of THAT photo! (EOM)
 

No Jerry, TWO known to exist... and there ma
 

Most of the "old-timers" here on the board seemed to have forgotten that all the information that we (the Lugerforum) currently have on this remarkable pistol is available on a page on this website that can be reached from the General Information Link to the left...


I have communicated directly with the curator of the Norton Gallery about it's existence, and both Johnny Peppers and Hugh Clark have actually seen the .45 Caliber Luger there...


I have never seen the OTHER one except in magazines...and on the History Channel special... and I do not know who is the current owner... To the best of my recollection, the last time it sold the price was over $800,000.00! and it is now considered to be worth over a million dollars.


Anyone who has a copy of the 1995? Guns & Ammo article that was written about firing that million dollar Luger is encouraged to scan it and have Dok post it as an addendum to the information page on the .45 caliber Luger.


Here is the link to Mike Krause website where a subsequent article for Guns & Ammo was written in March, 1998 by Garry James.


http://www.krausewerk.com/return_45_luger.html


In this article, the existence of the 2nd .45 caliber Luger at the Norton Gallery is not mentioned.


It is my personal belief that one of the reasons that it is not mentioned is that Garry James has publicly stated both in print, and in the History Channel documentary tape on the Luger that there is only ONE known to exist...and he doesn't want to be embarrassed about being mistaken. Since the value of the ONE is now estimated to be in excess of a million dollars based on his claim that it is unique, the existence of a second one might dramatically reduce the value of the first.


In discussion with another member of this forum the last time this came up, I was told that he had attempted to contact Mr. James about the issue and James was completely non-responsive...


I think that our own RON WOOD should do an update to this page and write a short narrative and post a nice gallery of photographs of his Mike Krause reproduction of this amazing piece of history...


How about it Ron? Would YA?


If anyone visiting this site has personal knowledge (or even rumors!) of other ORIGINAL .45 caliber Lugers, please contact me about the particulars... and I will try to run them down and substantiate their existence.


regards to all,


John Sabato

Re: No Jerry, TWO known to exist... and ther
 

There has been rumors for years of the existence of other .45 Lugers, but I know of no knowledgeable collector that has even come close to uncovering one of the pistols. E.S.Meadows mentions the possible existence of other .45 Lugers in his book "U.S.Military Automatic Pistols", but after doing extensive research never came close to finding one of the pistols.

I thought I still had the copy of the article in Guns & Ammo by Garry James on the .45 Luger, but cannot find it. I wrote Mr. James three different letters trying to make him aware of the other .45 Luger at Norton Gallery, but he wouldn't even extend me the courtesy of answering my letters. I was later told that Mr.James figured prominently in the sale of the .45 Luger prior to the article in G&A, and that he helped promote the idea that only one of the pistols existed. There was no way that he would make known the existence of another of the pistols. Supposedly Michael Zomber was the owner of the pistol, but word was that it had been sold to an Indonesian banker and Mr.Zomber was the front man. The pistol never left the US and when the economy started south, the pistol again came up for sale. Last word was that it was in the possession of Richard Ellis.

Maybe someone else on the forum has later information on the whereabouts of the .45 Luger in the article.

Re: No Jerry, TWO known to exist... and ther
 

Hello John,


I do have a photo of another 45 Luger.

Having a problem with my scanner I will see if I can solve that or maybe I could send it to Dok by mail to include it here.


Best regards,


Alain Capel

Paris

France

Alain, could you elaborate on the Luger of which you have a photo?
 

Do ou know of it's origin? Who currently owns it? Do you know where it is located? Is it on public display?


Any additional information that you have would be appreciated... and please send me a copy of the photo when you get your scanner problem fixed...


Merci,


John

Re: Alain, could you elaborate on the Luger of which you have a photo?
 

John,


Unfortunately I cannot give you much more info than the picture.

It belongs to someone I know, a European collector, who wishes so far to remain anonymous.

All I can say is that I saw and held the gun. I am still imensely impressed at such an incredible find of The invaluable historic Luger "par excellence".


Will send the picture ASAP.


Best regards,


Alain

Alain, this is a copy or an old one?
 

If it is a copy like Mr. Martz or a Krausework, or one of these others, they are still cool, but if it is an original, that would really be something.


Ed

Re: Alain, this is a copy or an old one?
 

Ed,


I have no idea.


You will judge from the picture I guess.


Alain