Glue for Rifle Stock Repair???
 

I picked up a bubba-ized 1891 Argentine Mauser from my LGS; usual butchering, ~6" of barrel chopped off, a foot of stock chopped off... :grr:

I can't restore it as a rifle, but I can make it into a faux 'cavalry carbine'...To do this I need to add ~5" of wood to the fore end (the carbine is full stocked)...

I don't have Reid Coffield's patience (or woodworking skills), so I milled the stock and an old Enfield stock end in a 'tongue & groove' configuration...

Now I need to glue it...In the far past, before the Greens and the Do-Gooders ruined glue, I used Resorcinol Glue for my woodworking projects (that's the brown glue you see between plies in plywood). The commercially available Resorcinol Glue now is crap. :mad:

So for most joins like this, I now use Polyester Resin (used with Fiberglas mat or cloth in boats, hot rod bodies, Corvettes, etc). That's probably what I'll use here.

But I'm interested in what the experienced woodworkers out there use for projects like this. I'm not concerned with looks, field expedient repairs aren't intended to be beautiful. I want something that will hold up.

What do you use??? :)

I would probably use Gorilla Glue and shoot a few 16 gauge brads through the band area.

glues....
 

Hi Rich, in my previous lives, I was a service manager in a large boat shop... we worked a lot with polyester and epoxies, and every one on the planet has worked with super glue... Cyanoacrylate.... But, the very best adhesive for your task may be just commercial grade wood glue??
From the net...polyvinyl acetate (PVA), also known as "white glue" or "hobby and craft", and aliphatic resin emulsion, commonly referred to as "carpenter's glue" or "Yellow glue"
Both would provide a bond stronger then the surrounding wood... But if your really serious... some type of long setting epoxy would be the strongest.. the weirder the mixing ratio, the better the Epoxy... Epon mil. spec. was the strongest I ever used... polyester, not so good, very little penetration and will fracture easily... Good luck, til...lat'r...GT...:cheers:

I build and repair longrifles, I use Titebond III.

I bet "Liquid Nail" can bond them together. Just used it to repair my window frame.

Titebond III is probably a good way to go. Tests I have seen show that the wood breaks before the bond and it is pretty simple to use.

Jim Solomon
 

I recommend Titebond III. Very strong, good open time and water resistant.

There's a thread here on a boatbuilders forum which discusses Titebond III...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/woo...ing-27019.html

An adage I heard years ago is "Gluing without clamping is a waste of time." I agree that Titebond III would be effective, and you would probably be good even if you use regular old Elmer's white glue. The application of a couple 16 ga. brads would "clamp" the segments together--it would also keep the joint indexed in case it wants to slip under pressure. I prefer a relentless force obtained by using narrow strips of inner tube wound around and around the joint, stretching them tight to the max all the way. A mechanical clamp tightens down OK, but unless you go back and re-tighten them 2-4 times, the clamps, by themselves, are set in dimension and will not provide the continuous, uniform pressure. Rubber pads between the clamp pads and the wood help this. The last method, with a bar clamp, I'd use to clamp the setup lengthwise, as well. Don't forget that the end grain takes extra glue because it is more porous than side grain.

Gerry, I'm somewhat surprised to hear you say that. I've used Polyester Resin (with or without Fiberglas mat or cloth) to repair my wood [plywood/pine] boats, my 66 Corvette, even patch holes in gunstocks. I've found that with hardwood sawdust mixed in, it makes a good filler. I've even used it to repair drawers and wood boxes. In the few instances that I've ripped the bonded wood pieces apart, I've noticed that the resin does penetrate. And it was the wood that separated when I pried it apart.

I like my 'glue' to also fill. There will always be voids and dimples; with the resin I can go back later and fill in. And it can be ground, filed, sanded to a smooth finish. Some glues soften with heat (from sanding friction).

I'm not a firm believer in the Resin, which is why I asked here. It has drawbacks, but they can be worked with.

But it was not intended to be a wood adhesive. Surely there are better 'glues' out there. I've always been fascinated by the method used by the British to refurbish their old Enfield gunstocks (and even handguards). Patches; cracks milled out and wood chunks glued in; even broken stocks glued back together (and reinforced). Seems like the British re-used everthing wood. That is the glue I would prefer.

I'm not a woodworker. Even my woodworking reflects my mechanical background. I'll try the Titebond III from Home Depot on a couple pieces of gunstock scrap and see how it works. :)

BTW: The three boats that my father and I built back in the late 50's/early 60's can be found here -

http://www.svensons.com/boat/

"Car Top Boat", "MiniMost", and "Blue Streak"

We built them in our basement in the Winters, great experience. The Blue Streak was re-built by me a year after construction to move the cockpit further forward...To better handle the Mercury Mark 30 4-cyl I put on it to replace the 2-cyl Mark 25... :D

I was able to get out to Home Depot today and got a bottle of Titebond III (Ace didn't have it) . They also had Titebond ['The Original'], Titebond II ['Premium'] and the Titebond III ['Ultimate']. But since y'all think III is the way to go, I bought a bottle ($8.61).

I couldn't find any scrap stock pieces that weren't usable for something, so I tried it on a pair of scrap pieces of Walnut lying around. Same end mill finish as the Mauser stock groove/tongue I cut, rubber banded together as I would the rifle stock. I'll check it in 24+ hours and see how it turns out. ;)

I also noticed that the toe of the stock had been broken off/cracked extensively at some time in the past, and some unknown previous owner had 'glued' (or epoxied) it...I can't pull or twist it apart with my two somewhat flabby arms, so I guess it's a good join...A little off; I can feel the uneven surfaces, it'll take a bit of sanding and maybe a little filler to even both sides out...

I wish I knew what this toe join was 'glued' with, it easily passes my lax quality control for 'glued' joins... :p

This is why I recommended Gorilla Glue and not Titebond. I use Titebond almost exclusively for my woodworking projects, but the way you made the cut doesn't really lend itself to good clamping. To get a strong joint with Titebond you need good wood-to-wood contact, and even if it looks like a nicely cut slip joint, there could be voids where the glue won't adhere well.

I use Gorilla Glue if I can't clamp well or where the surfaces are rough, it expands and fills the voids and it's at least as strong as a good Titebond joint. Sometimes you have to nail the pieces to keep the expanding glue from pushing them apart, but in this case I would just shoot some brads to hold it in place while the glue is setting up.

Edit: That old joint is probably doweled and glued.

I made a tongue & groove join because it gives me maximum surface area; I don't want it tight because that would cause the glue/epoxy to be scraped off when I push it on. I have an easy slip join now, with no twist.

I'll be using the barrel itself as my 'jig', with a layer of masking tape on the barrel itself (to give me a little 'float' when done) covered by a single piece of waxed paper to keep the glue/epoxy/resin from sticking to anything.

We all use what we're most familiar with; with me, it's the polyester resin. I mix it with paint if I want to give it color; or with sawdust to make a filler for filling small holes. Occasionally I'll cut a piece of hardwood to make a patch and use the resin to 'glue' that in place (see pics below).

One other outstanding 'glue'/epoxy I've used is by DevCon ["2 Ton Epoxy']; it comes in a big syringe with two chambers, epoxy & hardener; you push the plunger in and it mixes as it comes out. Unfortunately, it has a short shelf life when opened...

(No, these plugs are not pretty...) ;)

That's kind of what I thought. The only way to get a strong joint with wood glue (type Titebond) is to taper it slightly so the surfaces are wedged against each other as you tap it in. And no, I wouldn't want to cut such a joint either. :D

Like you said in a previous post, you'll need something that fills the joint, and it doesn't need to shrink either.

As noted in post # 13 above, I rubber-banded two pieces of Walnut scrap together and glued with Titebond III. It's 27 hours later (instructions say fully cured at 24 hrs) and time to test the join. ;)

First pic below shows the pieces clamped in my mill vise. I pulled back as hard as I could with both hands/arms, and could not break the join. I could see the Walnut bend a bit, but it wouldn't break. This is great! The joins I envision making are non-load bearing joins, so this would work OK. :cheers:

I still wondered how strong the join was, whether the wood would break, whether the wood fibers would rip out before the glue let go. So, I put a 12" Crescent wrench on the upper piece, and gave it a go. The glue join finally broke; no fibers ripped out; no wood breaking (second pic). :(

Still not a failure. I won't be yanking on these joins on the rifle. The only negative I had was when it came time to clean off the surfaces. The glue itself would not sand cleanly; it was semi-flexible and 'peeled' rather than sanded off. That could be a problem when sanding down the join or using it as filler.

After digging that DevCon 2-Ton Epoxy out, I decided to try that, just for S&G. I belt-sanded down the opposite ends of the scrap pieces and applied the DevCon the same as I did the Titebond III. I'll try my test again tomorrow after the epoxy has set up (third pic).

Curing conditions: In my house, 78º - 80º F for 24+ hours.

With Titebond III it is advisable to wipe off the "squeeze out" with a damp cloth. That makes for very little sanding to remove any that may seep into the grain. Titebond remains flexible for a considerable while, but the adhesion is, as you have found out, very good after 24 hours. It gets even stronger over time.

27 hours later, the DevCon 2-Ton Epoxy is ready to test! :D

First pic: Scrap wood set up in mill vise. Once again, I pulled with both hands/arms, to the point of my feet sliding on rough concrete floor...Didn't budge. I must admit, I was fairly confident it wouldn't separate. :thumbup:

Second pic: 12" Crescent wrench on top scrap piece...The join separated. :eek: I wasn't expecting that.

Third pic: Closeup of the scrap pieces. On the top, you can see the surfaces where the epoxy was...The wood fibers separated, not the epoxy...On the bottom, I belt sanded the squeezed-out epoxy [bottom edge of wood], just to show it was nice and hard...And sandable... :cheers:

I think that will conclude my demonstration for now...I found out what I wanted to know...

I finished de-greasing & stripping the Arg Mauser stock and the wood extension, tomorrow I'll do the join on them... ;)

Hi Rich,
 

Yes, I spent many hours, days, and years covered in polyester resin, dust, and acetone.... I found it was best used to make parts and then repair them! When filled with micro spheres, it is almost indestructible, but thermal setting resins, like polyester, and even epoxy when used as a glue, seems to have their own issues.. one is shock issues.. you can have an incredibly strong joint, and when stuck hard, it will fracture along a resin line and simply fall off, thus the use of filler, cloth, mat, and laminations... It will work, but as I said before, I think epoxy is most often the stronger of the two.. and some exotic epoxies are incredibly strong...I do think however, the wood glues you selected will work great in this application... Talk to ya soon...til...lat'r....GT :cheers:

I got the stock roughed out; metal parts fitted...

The spliced extension is OK; not great, but I can live with it...[1st pic]... :thumbup:

The plug where the bolt handle fits I don't like...But I don't have a large selection of hardwood to make plugs from, so this is what I've got...[2nd pic]... :mad:

What I'm wondering now is, should I stain the stock before I apply BLO to it??? The BLO will darken it a little, but this particular stock might look better dark, so the splice & plug don't show up as much...

Any thoughts on this??? :confused:

Staining is an iffy procedure, and it's not easy to match two different pieces of wood. If you saved the scrap pieces you can try the stain and the oil to see how it changes the color.

staining...
 

Olle is correct, matching is hard, except when you go dark.... Then, you can start light on one part, and then go dark to match... three levels of stain can be accomplished with Fibbings leather dye... light, med, dark brown... it's an aniline dye.. and has no filler, just color... then use Danish oil, natural, it works better then BLO, dries better, Good luck Rich, til...lat'r....GT:cheers:

I like Formby's Tung Oil, it seems to penetrate the wood and give it a nice, deep shine. It dries pretty quick, but it takes many coats to build up the finish.

That dye sounds interesting. One problem with stain is that you need to get just about all the color on in the first shot, after the first coat is dry it will seal the wood and the next coat won't soak into the wood. It's difficult to correct the color if you don't get it right to begin with, so using stain might give you more leeway.

I used to work for a cabinet factory, and they used different dyes mixed with alcohol. One problem they had when matching wood pieces was the red and yellow tones, so sometimes they had to pretreat with red or yellow dye before the stain. I believe these dyes are available from, for example, Woodcraft. I have also heard of woodworkers taking the felt tips out of Sharpies, then soak them in alcohol to make dye.

By the way, here's an SMLE I fixed up a while back. The buttstock was the older, dark walnut and the forearm was a newer replacement made of some kind of lighter wood (possibly beech). It took a few attempts and a lot of bad language, but it matched quite nicely once I was done with it.

Excellent!!! :thumbup:

I did a couple bubba-ized No 1 SMLE's as faux 'jungle carbines' using Redfield #75 peep sights w/hunting knobs and Numrich flash hiders and rubber & steel buttplates...And one #4 'jungle carbine' also...Pics around here someplace...I also have two boxes of parts for #1 and #4 rifles, plus about eight different buttstocks...

Sadly, both stock disks I have are blanks; no regimental markings... :(

I put it all back together, to get an idea of what it would look like, compared to what it was and what an 1891 cavalry carbine should look like... :rolleyes:

(Top to Bottom: 1891 Argentine rifle, bubba sporter, 1891 Argentine cavalry carbine, my faux carbine)

Laurel Mountain Forge makes excellent stains formulated especially for guns, The best finish I found is made by Keith Casteel, again formulated for guns.

The Woodstock OIL FINISH
Keith Casteel
RT. 1 Box 38 Bruceton Mills, WV 26525
304-379-8309 phone

good resorcinol
 

You can order good resorcinol from Aircraft Spruce. Well know and reputable company.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...clickkey=19859

Marc

Those discs can be found on eBay, but they're getting kinda pricey. My project was on a shoestring budget, so I simply turned a brass disc and aged it a bit by scratching and dinging it, then wiping it with Blacken-It ( http://www.micromark.com/blacken-it-4-fl-oz,7267.html ). It turned out nicely, but it would have looked much better with the markings.

I've seen pics of regimental marked disks on SurplusRifle Forum, but have no idea what regiments they belong to, or if there was a standard for the marks [letters/numbers/slashes]...I have one steel & one brass...

For my fake carbines, I fill the disk hole in with a wood plug, since part of it gets milled out anyway for the sling relief...

I'm doing another 1891 Argentine Mauser stock extension, to make another bubba-ized rifle into a carbine w/full-length stock; this time I milled a 1/2" wide x 3/8" high x 6" long slot in the combined bubba-ized stock & extension...Then I milled a same size Walnut 'plug' and glued it in place...I rough sanded it down...

It looks like a butt-splice, but it's actually a hidden tongue & groove splice. :D

When I first started, both the stock and extension looked the same color...(I had seven Mauser/Steyr/Enfield stocks to choose the extension from)...I chose an Enfield No 4 stock for the extension...The color looked close... :thumbup:

After sanding, the colors no longer match... :grr:

No matter. :) The barrel cap, front sight band & blade, and rear band/sling swivel are en route.

Well, I guess that is why we have stains...
dju

Here's a disk that came on the Swedish M96 stock I got off ebay...Don't have the slighest idea what it means, but it looks cool...Someone put a little bit of effort into the markings... :)

Edit: I found a site that deciphers the Swedish markings...Sort of... :rolleyes:

http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artikla..._se_rifles.htm

That disc seems to be buggered up. The "1, 2, 3" sector shows the barrel wear, and there should only be one mark. The "2-5" and "9-1" show the actual gore gauge, but it should also only have one mark.

The tung oil is easy to use for covering minor repairs to gun stocks. It is forgiving and allows for the semi-trained to use. Yes, it dries rather quickly and can be assisted, in drying, with a blow drier. I have had much success in using it on top of other finishes - such as true oil.
That's my shared secret of the day.
Will need to contact Mr. Casteel; he's only about 35 miles from me. His brother made me a Pennsylvania style muzzleloader in 1976 - for the bi-centennial. What a sweet gun.
Jack

I need something for the totally ignorant to use. I only have BLO on hand. :(

But that's weeks away. Parts won't be here for a week/10 days. $$$ doesn't get here until Monday...I hope... :o

For stock repairs, I've used Brownells Acra-glas for years. The runny original stuff in the red box for cracks and such. I've been able to blow it down into a crack with an air hose/compressor. For bigger jobs, like joining two pieces as discussed here, the "gel" works well. Both types can be dyed. Both sand well also. The best way to make an "invisible" repair is to select the wood carefully, make your joint or seam as tight as possible, and clamp tightly. This is a toe repair I'm working on for a customer's M-12. The arrow points to the seam. It included fitting a new buttplate. Still needs a little finish work, but will be done Monday or so. Photo is a little fuzzy. Oh well.

Jack,

Are you using the tung oil to cover minor repairs in Tru-Oil finishes, or are you using tung oil to completely refinish the wood over the Tru-oil finish? I have used Casey's Tru-oil finish for years, and also Formsby's Tung oil finish.

I finally finished the second 1891 Argentine Mauser stock 'repair'. I'm happy with the joint; with the color match, not so much...

I did stain the light forward piece, but the wood doesn't seem to like stain... :mad:

Anyway, they both resemble Argentine carbines now, instead of pawn shop junk (well, to my eyes they do)... :rolleyes:

A noble effort! They look pretty good.
I have a '91 Argentine carbine. They are really nicely made and they really bark when fired.