Help to ID NSDAP markings on Luger
 

New to forum and would like help from the experts on the significance of the markings on the front strap of this Luger. It does not belong to me. A friend of mine asked for help and I don't know much about Lugers he let me take pictures to post on this site. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Somebody been monkeying around...This marking is as fake as John Kerry's Silver Star.

Thanks for the info. I will pass on your observations.

Ken, Have your Friend remove the grips and see if they perchance match this pistol. They are a terrible fit. Not right at all IMO. They should taper down flush to the edge of the gripstrap.

OK I'll call and ask him to check. I'm assuming they should have the last two numbers of the serial number?

Ken, Yes..the last 2 and perhaps an Eagle 63 or a WaA of some sort of acceptance mark.

Ruined a nice wartime Mauser

We removed the grips and they are marked with the last two digits of the serial number which is 21. There are no other markings.

So what does it translate to?
dju

I have no idea. It was bought I believe at gun show in the late 70's early 80's. He thought there was some paper work with it and he is looking for it.

Something like: The NAZI SA Group North Sea

Yes, from the Elite shipboard SA Commandos! :roflmao:

Hi Ken,

There indeed was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee". An SA training school. Here are some original documents from an SA Troopers personnel files.

IMO, your friend has a very, very, rare and desirable unit marked, or more correctly, "Property marked" Luger. The markings are Pantographed rather than stamped, which would be correct for the era.

A quote from the description of the documents:

"Rotenführer according to a file page from the NSDAP, Gruppe Nordsee. A report from the SA group school Nordsee in a paper entitled “Beurteilung” has many good things to say about trooper Harms and it is signed by the Obersturmbannführer v. Engelin with the official stamp with eagle and swastika of the Nordsee Gruppe."

Ron

i did not know there was a school on how to beat up people, i always assumed it was on the job training.

I would dearly like to see another example before I bought that story. Can anybody point to another example?

Doug..Hang on for a day or two and I am sure I can get one...

Ron may be correct. I guess anything is possible but IF it's a one of... it might be hard to prove it's legitimate. I guess at this point the jury is still out. I was interested to see that there actually IS/was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee".

This is a list of Nordsee SA badges from the collection of a German collector. As in the attached photo..

These Nordsee SA groups existed.

It was also very common for Military and Police Schools or training facilities to property mark their equipment. The German Navy pantographed property marks on their equipment and weapons until approximately 1940.

Since the Nordsee Gruppe was located near, or possibly at the Naval station at Bremen, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to have had their weapons marked by the same facility.



SA-Gruppen

Gruppe Nordsee – Kampfsporttage der NSDAP 1933 Bremen - #93
Gruppe Nordsee – Tag der SA 1936 Bremen - #50, #66
Gruppe Nordsee – Sportwettkämpfe 1938 - #9
Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 - #51
Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 plastic- #97

Hi Ron, You've got me convinced. Thank's for the education.
Best regards, Norm

Hi Norm,

That makes two of us... ;)

In fact, if this SA Gruppe was stationed at the Naval Station in Bremen. It makes even more sense that they would have their weapons property marked, in order to distinguish them from Navy issue, or to keep them from being comshawed by the Navy personnel.

Thanks...

Ron

"comshawd". Haven't heard that in a few years. That is how I used to get spare parts for the "E" gang on my diesel boats. A five gallon tin of coffee could get a mg set overhauled. In Yoko our cooks would cook so much extra and then carefully wrap it safely in the trash. The yard birds ate well from what was sent to the pier and we got some of the best yard work ever done. Submarine comissary budget had much more than the engineering budget...being Submariners we could make it work.
Dive, Dive, take her deep..make your depth 58 feet. That is all.:cheers:

Thanks for the info. I did check with the owner of the gun and he told me he has letter from a luger expert named Costanza who actually looked at the luger and wrote a letter saying he thought the markings were legit. I will try to get a copy of the letter and post.
Thanks again for your help

That would be very interesting looking forward to it.

I would vote it's real. Usually people do NOT use gun in this nice condition as raw material to create fake by adding a property mark of a little known organization. Adding one or two "matching" magazines will be much more effective. So the mark is probably genuine. Just an opinion.

Letter from Costanzo

Wow. What a cool one to pop up. Learn something new everyday.

The marking is probably legitimate for the reasons already discussed. However the markings were not stamped as stated by Sam, they are obviously pantographed. That is a great letter to keep with the gun. Sam Costanzo was an outstanding Luger researcher. He didn't get everything right, but what he did get right - and documented - is monumental.

I was thinking of this thread while folding the laundry (Guhg!), and made a special trip back here to post this.
I am positive this is a legitimate marking, and was 90% sure from the original post. This thread should serve as a lesson that, despite all of our best intentions, not everyone here knows everything there is to know about these pistols. I think that this board, and Jan's board, are obviously the two de facto best resources for Luger research on the Internet, and therefor globally, BUT, here's the caveat, there is a lot of opinion, and opinion can never be allowed to displace facts.
I don't want anyone to take this as a personal attack, that is far from my intent, and I apologize in advance if it is perceived that way, but if the OP had listened to the first couple of posts, or rather if his friend had, he may have sold the Luger for a song thinking it a mucked up, or forged piece, relegated it to a "shooter", parted it out, or done something really awful like have it engraved or nickel plated!
As has been said so eloquently by others before, information from the Internet is worth EXACTLY what you pay for it. Everyone should always USE MULTIPLE SOURCES TO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

Thanks for everyone's help. It is really appreciated.

Hello,

I agree with Ron, the "SA der NSDAP" marking is legit and you can find a similar marking as example on the stock of KKW training rifles from the Sturmabteilung (SA).

But there doesn't have to be a connection to the Navy, as the SA-Gruppe Nordsee covers a larger area and they had various branch of service.

In the SA-Gruppe Nordsee are the following Brigade:
Brigade 62 (Unterweser)
Brigade 63 (Ostfriesland)
Brigade 64 (Osnabrück)
Brigade 162 (Minden)
Brigade Marine 2 (Navy 2)

In the SA-Brigade Marine 2 are the following Standarten:
Standarte Marine 15 located in Bremen
Standarte Marine 89 located in Bremerhaven
Standarte Marine 116 located in Wilhelmshaven

Even without Kriegsmarine connection, because of the style I could imagine a armorer of the Naval Station in Wilhelmshaven marked this Pistole 08 for the SA to distinguish them from Navy issue. Maybe the pistol was property of the SA-Brigade Marine 2 and if they have together a maneuver, they would want to prevent an inadvertent exchange with such a marking.

Regards,
Stephan

Made this thread a "Sticky" for the good reference material here as well as the discussion.

The marking would be more believable if the pistol was a banner commercial. The "Party" was required to source arms on the commercial market. In 1938 all government arms resources were be used to fulfill rearmament.

I don't like the lettering at all. It doesn't appear to look pantograph to me at all under higher magnification. The ends of the letters look rounded like being done on a milling machine. Shouldn't pantograph letters be squared off at their ends? Look's like little swirling marks thru the length of the letters caused from a milling bit.

Rounded ends and little swirling marks are signs of pantograph use as opposed to stamping. So the markings look just like many hundreds of other 1920-30 timeframe German unit markings.

A pantograph is just a duplicating device, it can have several options for actually marking, from a pen or pencil, to a stylus, the Germans appear to have used something similar to a spinning dremel tool bit(think of the old style dentist drill)- which of course is why it looks like milling. I guess you could think of it as a tiny milling machine.:thumbup:

Thx Don
for clearing this up for me. I have thought it was more like a cutting tool that scrachted into the metal. Like what you see done on trophies. I didn’t realize that they were using power tools to do the cutting in this process at this time.
Thx.

Jeffrey