9mm Nato Load?
 

Regretfully a year ago purchased 1,500 rounds of 9mm Nato load. Before using them I read the back of the box and it indicated that it was 10% more than standard 9mm Luger load and to be used in Modern Firearms? Anybody familiar with this, would appreciate your assistance. I'm trying to determine if the NATO ammo can be safely used in the WWI & WW II German Lugers and and P 38's.

All the warnings I have been told is to fire ammo like this only in guns designed for it

I don't have the numbers handy, but I think you would find that German wartime 9x19 is probably closer ballistically to 9mm Nato-spec ammo than it is to commercial Remington or WWB.

Jonnyc, thanks for your reply. I'm trying to determine if the NATO ammo can be safely used in the WWI & WW II German Lugers and and P 38's.

You are correct. US manufacturers tend to download ammo because of liability concerns. Holds true in 8mm as some of the early 98's were not designed for the later ammo (the 98s were stronger later on).

I have had no problem with German WWII ammo when shooting my luger or my Hi Powers. Nor have I had any problems with current 9mm from abroad. But then my pistols were in good shape.

Our advice here has consistently been, over many years and many examples of damaged collectable firearms:

Do not fire Nato load ammo in historic firearms.

White box Winchester (or equivalent) if you must.

Marc

I agree with conventional wisdom....I would NOT fire NATO ammo in WW1 and WW2 historical firearms... depreciation of value with ONE cracked part is too risky.

Hi:

Here is the truth.

Through WWII the German Army load for the 123 gr. bullet was at 1,076 fps.

The current NATO load is 121 gr. bullet at 1,260 fps.

If you value your Luger, don't fire this hot stuff through it!!!

On the other hand, quite a few people are looking to buy the NATO spec stuff. Check your local law, but you should be able to sell it, if you want.


Sieger

A "121 gr." bullet?

Hi,

No typo.

Sieger

Hmm, over here they shot standard NATO ball through anything that moves for years, and the guns still work, so I think the problem is slightly exaggerated.

Dutch government used FN Hi-Power pistols and Glocks for years with the stuff, I shot several boxes through my 1937 P08 without issues. I wouldn't recommend it as a regular diet for prolonged use, but the gun will not roll over and die after a box of NATO 9mm once in a while.

That said, the risk of shooting collectible pistols with ANY ammunition should be known by now. If you don't want to break anything, don't shoot them.

Hi

P-38s are known as slide crackers, and I crack one with the NATO round.

Sieger

It happens.

Ever wondered why certain parts are unnumbered? -> They fail after a number of shots.
I went through 3 ejector springs over a period of 8 years.

Also broke an extractor while shooting Winchester whitebox.

Nato Ammo was meant as a mean load for both pistols and SMGs, and does have a stronger recoil impulse and higher velocities than standard US loads.

In this country we do not have 9 mm Para, as it is considered illegal, we are compelled to use 9x21 IMI which is even stronger (and all P.08 chambers get spoilt to use this absurd caliber) In any case I would NEVER use it in an old gun.

Vlim:

Some really love the Winchester White Box, but by the original German standards, it's is too hot too!!

Sieger

What was the original German standard? I've heard Winchester White Box recommended in the forums several times, so I just figured the 115gr must be close.

I understand that the original 9mm Luger load was a 123 gr. at 1,076 fps.

Being new to this perhaps it is my lack of knowledge, but if the original 9mm Luger load was 123gr wouldn't that be a hotter load than the Winchester White Box that is 115gr?

Hi:

No.

Sieger

And to add a little to that helpful post......
The 115gr. and 124gr. refer to the bullet weight in "grains", not the pressure or propellant charge. You can have hot and mild 115 loads, and hot and mild 124 loads.

Thank you for the more insightful response Jon. As I said, I’m new to this but trying to learn what I can and perhaps eventually load my own ammo; I just don’t want to be too hasty about it.

Another variable is the burning rate of the powder, and it's ignition pressure curve. All of the factors (bullet weight, powder charge, specific primer, case dimension, headspace, chamber profile, and the run-in to the barrel rifling) are involved in a balance that the pistol's mechanism must cope with during the firing cycle. Firearms are designed to handle specific maximum pressures that pulse along the ignition pressure curve.

DWM and the group owned firearm manufacturers, powder manufacturers, component manufacturers and complete cartridge manufacturers. They had complete control in their design, development and testing of complete systems.

Today, with the broad market for firearms and ammo, we tend to forget that Lugers were developed as complete systems including the ammo.

With the broad marketplace, and competing suppliers today, standards had to be developed. That is what SAAMI is. SAAMI didn't exist when our Lugers were invented, because it didn't have to. DWM had complete control.

There is considerable research in developing the loads used in modern metallic cartridge ammunition. It is empirical (not theoretical) research, done in the lab by ammo and component manufacturers.

They publish books with specific recommendations for working up loads, including brands of bullet, powder and primer. These give good starting points for developing a load for a specific firearm.

Marc

Thanx to both Jon and mrerick for their more in-depth explanations. For those of us who don't know this kind of stuff, its a real Revelation! I'm just used to pulling the trigger and the gun goes bang.

What is the load on White box???

Here's a discussion about Winchester white box load data that I found online.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...owtopic=145033

I would assume that all the components, including the powder, are made by Winchester.

Marc

Hi:

I'm sorry for my short answer above, but I usually get online after midnight. It is 3:52 AM here now.

Winchester does publish the specs. on its White Box 115gr "Target" ammo (not to be confused with its NATO spec. ammo that is avalable to the public as well).

If memory serves, it is at nearly 1,200 FPS, again too hot for an original Luger by some 12%

Also, the White Box I have shot has not grouped well at all.

Custom reloads I've developed (search my name for them) will easily shoot into one inch at 25 yards (shot over a sand bag).

Have any of you had any particular success wth the White Box as far as accuracy goes?

Sieger

I got your back, Jack! :D

This has been posted several times before; but since the Search function that John D. paid a lot to have included in vBulletin gets so little use, here's a new scan of Winchester's 'White Box' Target 115gr FMJ ammunition. Note the teeny-tiny ballistics table on the back.

I would also like to point out that powder composition changes, sometimes from year to year. A reloading table/book from years ago will not necessarily reflect real world values today. The Greens have had a detrimental effect on what can be used in smokeless powder today (or yesterday) as compared to loads worked up in years past and posted/written in reloading manuals & magazines. Always use the minimum load listed for any particular bullet and work your way up.

My $.02