42 luger
 

I'm hoping someone can give me a little help on a luger I own.It is a vet bring back .It is marked BYF 42.Something has been ground off under the barrel and on the on the side just above the safety. What would have been there?All numbers match.The blueing on the high points is a little thin but other than that blueing is in good shape .Has perfect barrel and shoots like a dream .I would never sell this piece but what would a pistol like this be worth?Any help would be appreciated.


Bob

Re: 42 luger
 

With ground-off parts, the value is rather modest, say, $450. What is of greater concern is what is ground off. Was the serial number ground off the front of the frame? That might present a need to reapply the s/n (though the s/n appears in part on the barrel and receiver). The only thing over the safety lever that I can think would be removed is the word "Gesichert" (for "made safe"). There is nothing else I can think of.


Congratulations on having a luger.

Re: 42 luger
 

I recently saw several Lugers that had their Bulgarian 'cyrillic' lettering ground off and buffed out. Apparently this was a requirement in the early fifties to get them into this country. All serials were left intact and the bluing was of the salt variety. The extractor still had the foreign stampings. I also have seen barrels with have been 'turned' to remove any marks whatsoever (serials, proofs, importers marks, etc). Since the barrel is not considered a firearm, once it is removed from the frame, it can be unmarked (as far as I know there is no law that states a barrel must have the same serial or proofs as the frame).

Re: 42 luger
 

In the case of a Luger, the barrel, receiver and toggle train is considered a firearm. With only the upper part of a Luger, it is possible to chamber a round and fire it by pressing on the forward part of the sear. There is actually a case on record of an individual who disassembled his Luger with a round in the chamber and when he dropped it on the table, it discharged wounding him severly. You are correct that there is no law requiring the barrel and frame to have matching serial numbers. In fact, even though the aforementioned barrel/receiver assembly is considered a firearm, I don't know if there is a law or regulation requiring it to be serial numbered. Does anybody in the forum know?

Frame Defined
 

This is the ATF's published definition. It does not really describe either part correctly?


I have been told they have defined both/either as a frame in different court cases.


I would not sweat having a SN removed from a barrel, or an un-numbered barrel if the lower receiver was correctly numbered.


Orv Reichert






http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/framedef.jpg

Re: 42 luger
 

Guys thanks for the response.After reading responses I relized I made a mistake in my description.The other ground spot is not over the safety but over the barrel release?Receiver.I guess it would make sense that this would be the spot where the serial number would have been along with on the bottom of the barrel?Is this correct?I was told that the vet that brought it home took off the numbers .Would this make sense?Thanks

Re: Frame Defined
 

I know that to purchase a frame (not the toggle assy or barrel) you often need an FFL. In recording the serial number of a Luger the number on the frame is what gets recorded during a paperwork transaction. To my knowledge they haven't required barrel registration yet. Orv, I agree with ya!

Re: 42 luger
 

Bob, I am not sure what you mean by the barrel release. On the Luger's left side there is a safety lever and a take down lever and a magazine release. There shouldn't be any other buttons or levers (am I missing something?)

Re: 42 luger
 

He means the takedown lever. Barrel release is close enough to tell the meaning especially because just above it is a partial serial number on left chamber side of receiver. Me thinks someone ground the s/n off the front of frame below barrel and on left side of receiver. Why? That is puzzling--why would someone grind serial number off a firearm that he had legally and that was not used in a crime? A partial s/n might remain on the barrel and with some clever insights, we might be able to estimate the letter suffix.

Re: 42 luger
 

The serial number of the pistol can be determined from the number inside the side plate, and from the last two digits on the small parts. The number inside the side plate on this pistol will be one digit higher than the actual serial number.

If you will post the number found inside the sideplate, and the two digits found on the small parts your serial number can be determined.

Re: 42 luger
 

Without getting too wrapped up over the exact position of the gridings (without a photograph, anyway) is it possible that someone ground off the proof stamps? Possibly to eliminate anything which looked remotely like a Nazi symbol? The proofs on my S/42--right side of the receiver--were ground before it was reblued, a Russian-dip I think. They were ground just enough to be illegible, and was the only part of the gun so treated--the serial number on the left side was untouched.


--Dwight

Re: 42 luger
 

I think that grinding off the nazi proofs makes more sense than the s/n but, as you say, it is hard to know without a picture.

Be very careful here, Bob
 

Hi Bob,


John is giving you the straight scoop. If the serial number on your Lugerâ??s frame has been removed or altered then you are committing a Federal felony by just possessing it. Here is the law on the topic (27CFR178)


Sec. 178.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.


No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate

or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or

manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or

possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or

manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has,

at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign

commerce.


If the serial number on your pistol has indeed been removed you have a limited number of options. You can turn it in, you can contact ATF about having it renumbered, or you can just keep it and take a chance on getting caught. If you get caught youâ??re looking at ten years in jail and/or a $250,000 fine, and the permanent loss of your right to ever again own or posses a firearm.


If the serial number on your Luger has been removed, my best advice is to retain an attorney *immediately* and do as he suggests.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Re: Be very careful here, Bob
 

Thank you very much for your response.It has been ground down in one spot you showed me the other is not quite where your arrow shows ,it is actually on the barrel just above the spot you indicate.However in the spot you indicate there looks to be no mark in that location accept for the suffix "L".Were the serial # put on the barrel sometimes? Is there another pIace where I can find the serial number?I actually traded this with someone in Law inforcement .I mean who the hell knows where he got it? I would like to think he was telling me the truth when he told me that it was a vet bring back and that the guy had actually done the damage.But now I don't think I believe that story.DUH .Looks like I'll have to give this puppy back to the guy I got it from.Guess you really trust anyone.

another way out !!
 

That sounds like a gun that some cop acquired thru a turn-in or confiscation.


Most departments require that they turn such items in [so the dept. cannot be criticized]


Often, they forget (?)to turn them into the dept... or, as also happens, someone will just give a cop a gun as they don't want it, themselves.


Such items are also know as a 'throw down' gun.


You could always get rid of the frame and replace it with one that is properly numbered from Heller or Raum? Then, it would be legal.

Re: 42 luger
 

Bob do you live close to Wisconsin? My grandfather had his bring-back Luger stolen from him in the early 70's and I have made my main mission in life to try to find it, as hopeless as it sounds! Anyways if you live close by I would be interested in meeting you and maybe seeing this Luger. I realize this sounds desperate, but I must pursue any possible lead. I can rule this one out right away if it has an import mark, does it? Any help you can give me Bob would be much appreciated. Thanks. PHIL

Problem luger
 

I concur with John and Kyrie and could have been more direct in my expression of concern earlier. The grinds you mentioned seemed suspiciously like deliberate removals of serial numbers -- seems the offender did not get enough of the s/n's to obliterate them on this luger (that is one of the amazing things about lugers--so many ways the s/n is applied and in so many different places). The s/n is probably recoverable but appears an attempt was made to remove it from this luger.

What about those lunch pail Lugers?
 

I have been following the thread, and I would think that the best thing (or give it back) is to talk to the feds and have the serial number placed back on it, or a new one. Since it has been grinded on, a new serial number won't make much differnce. I would imagine that it is like going to the State Patrol and getting a new VIN #. I've done that a couple of times for a trailer and a car. You go, tell them the problem and get a solution. Being honest has always kept me out of trouble.


If you paid for it (I think this one was free), then if they consficated it, you aren't out anything, but my gut feeling is that geting it renumbered would be a viable solution.


But back to my question.


I have always heard about lunch box Lugers (colts etc.), what do or what have collectors done? This has to have been an issue faced over the years?


Ed

Re: 42 luger
 

Guys


Thanks for all your help. My ignorance in the gun world could have gotten in big ****. I blasted the guy ( a Friend)I got it from for giving me a gun that, in the worst case, could have been used to take a life in some cowardly way. It is going back TODAY. Phil as all I can tell you is that no I don't live anywhere near you and although I sympathize with your problem, I' am doing what I have to do to correct this for myself . sorry

Guns that made it through the manufacturing process
 

without having numbers on them are nothing like guns that have, and then had them removed.


Many times tool room samples of gun parts are not numbered and somewhere along the line accountability for the items gets lost.


Without some traceability, there is no way to prove what is stolen and what isn't...


Those guns in collector hands that have no numbers are usually prominent pieces of their collection and were acquired with a legal traceable paper trail that relieves them of accountability... This is a far cry from having a gun that has had the numbers removed to prevent traceability.


To this day, an ordinary citizen can legally fabricate any type of otherwise legal weapon on their own, for their own use, and no serial numbers have to be applied to it... This is the reason there are so many AR15 80% finished castings sold in this country. It isn't considered a firearm by ATF until it is much more than 80% finished...


If a current owner of a firearm manufacturer chose to personally build themselves an unserial numbered Luger (The Krause Lugers for example) that was for their own use in a personal collection, this is perfectly legal. Weapons made in this fashion can not be made with the pre-existing intent to sell. But I am sure that does not preclude the sale of such a personal firearm at some later time...


I think the ATF would monitor closely any manufacturer that made more than just a couple of these 'personal' firearms, and would revoke the FFL of anyone who practiced this with regularity...


I know several folks who have successfully built such rifles for their own use legally... This ability to manufacture for personal use does not necessarily extend to areas where a particular type of firearm has been banned such as California.


If you are interested in building your own firearms, the AR15 is an excellent choice... Visit www.ar15.com and check out the build-it-yourself forum...


best,


John Sabato

Re: 42 luger
 

Hi Bob,


The true nightmare scenario with firearms that have obliterated serial numbers is getting caught with them and having a positive ballistic match come back indicating the firearm was used in an unsolved murder. At that point you can expect questions of the â??Where were you on the night of...â?� type, from LEOs, who know two things:


1) The firearm was in your possession, and


2) The firearm was used in a crime.


If you cannot demonstrate you acquired the firearm after the crime, and have no provable alibi, things can get very nasty very quickly since there is physical evidence linking you to the crime.


All of which is why itâ??s wise to avoid firearms with obliterated or altered numbers as if they were the plague.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

Re: 42 luger
 

I agree that giving the gun back is the best option. As for being accused of murder..well, yes, that is a worst case scenario for sure. But, since it takes 12 people to agree that you are guilty the odds of that are very beatable. I can't find twelve people who will agree on anything anymore.

Re: 42 luger
 

With my luck I would get 12 People who don't like to argue and be convicted.

Re: 42 luger
 

I may stand corrected, but I believe a very good lab tech can bring up the obliterated or ground off/down serial numbers. It has something to do the molecular structure of the metal when it has been struck by a stamping press. Can any of our engineers add to this? I personally would get rid of the weapon. Give it back to the guy you acquired it from. If he is in law enforcement, he should know better. Can you tell me please, what area of the country did this happen?

Re: 42 luger
 

You are correct Schwob .

The process is technically called raising the number.

It is performed by acid etching the surface.

The principal is that compacted metal resists etching more than the surrounding area, leaving a contrasting light area where the dies compressed the metal.

will not always work but I wouldnt bet my future that it would'nt !

ViggoG