Screws for stock iron
 

The threaded part of the screws the hold the iron fitting to the wood on my artillary stock are broken off. I bought some screws that looked right at a gun show but they were an incorrect thread and would not screw into the tapped holes on the bottom of the iron. The new screws were a standard modern metric thread. Does anyone know what the correct thread form is? Better yet, does anyone know where to get correct screws?

The screws that fit the grips to the frame on a Luger are an unusual British thread called "Whitworth". "BSW".

It's possible that the stock iron screws adhere to the same standard.

You can learn more about that standard here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Standard_Whitworth

Marc

I have a pair avaliable if you need and don't find in USA
Price is 70$ + shipping

If you need a set of the right screws I would get the pair offered
you at $70.00 plus shipping as they are almost inposiable to find
the right ones for a stock iron.
Thanks,George

are broken off..That's not something I have ever seen. Were they broken off in the holes and you had to back them out or what?

I agree with George..Get em where you can find em. Their rare. If Patrice has a set you are a lucky man.

Only the bottom 1/4" or less has threads. Both bolts had the threaded portion broken off when I got the stock, and the broken pieces had already been removed. The iron was being held on only with the friction on the bolts in the wood. I didn't realize anything was wrong until I tried to tighten the iron by turning the screw heads.

I will try to contact LU1900.

May I suggest that anyone, including the OP, who owns a genuine stock iron, take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion?

This would be good information to know. Unfortunately, my Luger Blueprint CD does not include prints and specs on the stocks... :banghead:

IF anyone has a genuine blueprint for the stock and associated parts, Please PM me, I would love to be able to include it in the Blueprint CD.

2nd question... does anyone who owns both a genuine stock, and a reproduction stock know if the repro screws will fit a genuine stock? :confused:

John-- I bought some new screws at a gun show that were supposed to be for a stock iron. They were the same configuration and length as the original screws and looked perfect. However, they were a modern metric thread and would not screw into the original iron more than 1 or 2 threads. Also, none of the usual US thread forms available at a hardware store would fit the threads. Marc's suggestion that they are Whitworth thread is probably correct. The screws I bought may have been for the reproduction stock irons.

take it to a local hardware store and use their ability to determine the actual thread specification for the stock iron screws by trying samples of screws in the threaded portion?

John, This would be a useless enterprise..I had a very knowlegeable machinist make me a half dozen screws. He tracked down the information and made me screws that are perfect.

No reproduction stock iron I know of uses the same pitch as an original. I can contact Ken and see if he can remember all that info..I forget if he bought or borrowed the dies to make my screws. But he knows what they should be.

Just got off the phone with Ken..He says it was an obscure American thread. He is going to the shop to see exactly what so it may be awhile before he gets back to me!

Apparently the German bought many of their machines used during this era from British and American company's.

The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw.

It's copyrighted so I can't post it's contents.

Marc

The Sturgess book contains prints of the stock, it's stock iron and the screw.

Marc, Does the Sturgess book give any measurements, thread pitch or any useful information we are looking for? Or just show the stock iron and the screw?
I have a copy but I am up to my ears in making steel rivets and washers for an Artillery rig..Do you have the page #?

Hi, It's on Sturgess page 1834 at the end of the lP.08 Drawings. There are are measurements in millimeters, but no profile description of the thread.

Marc

Evans obsolete screws is a great source.
If he already has a pattern he can make a perfect repro.
I had him make a few obscure pieces by supplying him an original.
Great guy to deal with.

What does this screw look like?

And why would they break? Old metallurgy? Overtightening?

I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws without seriously damaging the wood.

I can't imagine applying enough pressure to a shoulder stock to break the screws

Doug, That is certainly true! Although twice now I have found original snail drum loading tools with pivot pins broken off at the thread ends! This pin is about twice as robust as a stock screw..It also has a slotted head and you have to wonder how the break took place? Neither slot has any damage and there is no extreme downward pressure I can figure out. You would think it almost has to be a metal or hardening problem?

Evan's Obsolete Screws is now:

http://www.customscrewsandmore.com/

Rick, There is really no need to have these screws made..I know of 3 sources where they can be bought. Patrice offered the gentleman a set..were I him I would take that offer.

Seems like when I was younger, the price for a screw was cheaper than the numbers I have seen in this thread. While I am sure everything was cheaper way back when..this is today. Supply and demand is a factor and Artillery stock iron parts are not found at the local hardware.

One could always rethread the hole for something more common..BLASPHEMY!! To ruin a $500 original stock iron because you are too cheap to buy the screws already offered would be criminal! That would NEVER be a thing a true collector would even consider. Destroying the integrity of an original historical artifact..that idea should never even be brought up! It's one thing to add a repro part but to actually go where you can't return..NO!

"I hope the guy finds, mods, or makes what he needs; the result will be the same."

You couldn't be more wrong so I will agree to disagree. Decisions made that cannot be reversed are poor decisions. Drilling out threads on an original stock iron would be the height of stupidity and the owner would vastly devalue the iron altering it forever. Rick you should really re consider giving that kind of advice. Anyone prescribing to that method would be a very poor steward of historical artifacts entrusted to your care.

I hope the guy does the right thing, buys some correct screws and ignore's bad advice.

Rick,

Keep in mind that we are talking about historic artifact, if originality isn't important to you, you can just as well buy a reproduction stock. Some people will argue that "this is my gun, and I can do whatever I want to it". This is indeed true, but I still don't see myself as the owner of my old guns. I'm simply a temporary curator and it's my responsibility to keep and preserve the guns for future generations.

If you ask somebody at a museum, they would cringe at the thought of rethreading. Many preservation experts say that you shouldn't even try and hide a repair/alteration, as the repair or repair part can be mistaken for original later on, thus misrepresenting the object as being original and not repaired. Not only would it be dishonest to a possible buyer, it may also cause confusion and mistakes in future research.

Granted, there are situations where rethreading is the only option, but I can't see that this is one of them. I strongly agree with the preservation idea, any repair or alteration should be made in a reversible way. This is not always possible, but in this case it is. I have made many screws for my own projects, and I see rethreading as the very last resort.

If this is not enough to convince you, Jerry's point may. Why decrease the value of an original stock, just to save money on a screw? There's already too many "Bubba restored" guns and parts out there, and even if Bubba himself thought he was doing the right thing, he will know better when it's time to sell.

IMHO, if it were me, I would buy Patrice's set for his asking price, send them to Evans and ask him to make a set (and take dimensions), and recoup my investment with the copy (or copies).

This would allow you to replace your screws and provide future restorers a place to get accurate reproductions.

All I have to say is get the right screws for your stock iron,I would not buy a stock that had the wrong stock iron screws.
If you drill out the stock iron and rethread the holes you have
destroyed the stock iron.
Thanks,George:atwhore:

Rick, My efforts for the last 2 decades have been to repair, restore, preserve and collect. I am first off a collector of historical original German Military artifacts. The only reproductions I have ever made have been those that were very rare, unavailable or too expensive.

I accurately preserve damaged and broken items..or ones bubba has ruined after taking some boneheads bad advice. The one I see all the time are holsters taken to a shoe repair guy..rather than restore them they are ruined forever..almost exactly like the idiot advice I heard one time about drilling out the original threads on an original stock iron.

"I guess I gave up on collecting years ago" Yes..I guess you have given up on collecting because anyone who is interested in preserving history, taking care of expensive historical artifacts as a collector entrusted to them would NEVER suggest such stupidity. I resent that a member such as yourself would not only suggest it to a new member but go on to try to defend it. It is exactly the opposite of what I stand for. Destruction of original German stock irons is too foolish to contemplate.

" I do hope that tomorrow goes better for you." It would be much better if I didn't have to waste time with people who post idiotic advice thanks.

If you have lost your passion for Luger collecting I understand but please do your best to keep bad ideas to yourself.

Rick, did you realize before you disparaged Jerry that this is foremost a collectors forum. The bulk of people that support this forum by answering questions are trying to support the history of these weapons. These people are not interested in short cuts and forever changing the originality of what ever artifact they have. Being cynical on it's own is not an answer to any part of this discussion. Curt

Rick, I would have the same passionate argument if a loved one were about to jump off a bridge. Don't do it..your an idiot to think that way. There are other solutions to your problem.

I have made a more than reasoned argument for not destroying an original stock iron. You cannot justify doing it other than.." it's all the same in the end " Remindes me of Hillary Clinton in her Bengazi hearings.."What difference does it make?"

To me it isn't all the same. I collect Artillery Lugers & stocks and everyone is a precious hard found, expensive acquisition. That a Member would so cavalierly advocate that another Member destroy his.. on a whim.. is such a betrayal of all I collect.. it must be answered.

I would welcome any reasoned argument for doing such a henious thing and you are welcome to respond.. but you can't and you won't.. because no such argument exists.

The only positive I can see in Rick's advice is that by screwing-up an original stock the collecting pool of originals becomes smaller and thus my collection becomes a tiny bit more valuable.

Gentlemen: I am new to this forum, and I was happy that a forum member had these screws and offered them to me. I have sent him the price for them because I want to fix my stock the best way I can. I considered rethreading to the screws I had but I could not bear to do so.

So, is this horse dead, then?

So, what was the thread size?

I would also like to know that, and a picture would be great as well. I make gun parts on a fairly regular basis, so this might be something I want to try.

I'll make some thread measurements and post pictures when they come if they are correct.

That would be great! :)

If you bought the screws from LU1900, you can count on them being correct... and yes, please post photographs of the screws when you get them... and the thread pitch if you can figure it out...

There is a print for the stock iron screws in Volume III, page 1834 of The Borchart-Luger Pistols.

There is a print for the stock iron screws in Volume III, page 1834 of The Borchart-Luger Pistols.

Took a look..It's pretty useless for any reproduction purposes.

Jerry
I compaired a original stock iron screw to the drawing of the screw (which is not a 1:1 scale drawing as to length) on page 1834 and it is accurate.
The best match for thread pitch I could find appears to be Whitworth (55 Degree) 30G.
Thanks
Ed Roane

Do you know what the thread pitch is? Diameters and tool angles are easily changed when making screws in the lathe, but it will take some math to come up with the correct change gear combination if it doesn't correspond to a common standard or metric pitch.

Original screws are on way to Pat , comming back from my gunsmith I buy a pair repro for 50€ .
Not blued , in the white and fit perfectely !
http://imageshack.us/a/img13/3269/visnewferrures.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/5864/v...ureseuless.jpg

If there's a die available, those would be a piece of cake to make...