Need help with an EXTREMELY rare Luger
 

Hey guys I'm new to collecting Lugers but not firearms. I started after I retired from the Army and haven't looked back. I need help pricing a recently purchased Luger that to my knowledge are only 8-10 were made and even fewer that have been located. It's a Mauser S/42 Precision/Accuracy Test Luger.
The most up to date research on these examples was completed by the Dutch Luger scholar, Joop van de Kant, based on Mauser archives and the recollections of August Weiss, the last head of Mauser Parabellum production who died many years ago. In his new book, The Mauser Parabellum, 1930-1946, at Page 365 he provides the true history of the Üb-marked guns (with "Üb" abbreviating Übung, German for "practice" or "exercise"). He also lists and depicts three more known guns: S/Ns 1413, 1311, and 1316. (These are closer in number to my S/N 1907 example). That makes for at least eight known examples, in two groups, one of four guns in the below 2000 range, and one of four guns in the 11000 range. The key things to know with respect to your questions are the following: 1. The "A" stands for Anschuss, the German word for precision test. 2. The little hole shown in the Kenyon example is by far the outlier exception. It may have been drilled to destroy the barrel, as there were used to the point of near-destruction, as seen in certain other captured arms. The point is that Kenyon was wrong about the theory that these were "pressure test" guns; they were not. In any event, a pressure test gauge would have required a larger hole and a top-mounted gas shunt. To paraphrase Joop, the origin of the guns lies in the problems that Mauser encountered concerning the high percentage of rejected Luger pistols at the final accuracy test (Anschuss) of the military acceptance procedure. In order to obtain the second acceptance proof, pistols were submitted to a precision test. Mauser workers had to shoot one magazine of 8 rounds at a special target at a distance of 50 meters from a bench rest. At least 5 round should be in, or touch, a circle of 17 cm in the middle of the target. When this was not achieved, the pistol went back to the factory for readjustment of the front sight, or even a barrel replacement. Mauser was very concerned about the high percentage of rejects at the first presentation for this test. Therefore, the next steps were introduced during mid-1935 (confirmed by a Mauser document I have seen and read, and which is in Joop's book): 1. Out of all workers the best marksmen were selected. 2. A bonus was offered for these marksmen when they could improve the rate of accepted pistols at the first attempt. This bonus went from 1 Pfennig for a rate of 31-35%, to 4,5 Pfennig for a rate of 70% or higher. 3. These marksmen were invited to practice target shooting in private time. 4. For this practice, an unknown quantity of so called and marked Üb pistols were assembled from obsolete parts. These pistols were kept in the factory and issued to the marksmen during their exercising. The first Üb marked pistols were assembled in 1935. In view of the growing production numbers of military Luger pistols produced per month thereafter, more Üb marked pistols were added during 1936-1941 (evidenced by some, the rarest, with a byf toggle, which could only have been made in or after 1941). The Üb marking is observed mostly on the chamber, also on the wooden grip panels and some on top of the barrel. These pistols are mostly non-matching, and a mix of DWM, Erfurt and Mauser parts is reported. They have nothing to do with hypothesized "tool room" or "pressure test" pistols. About half of these pistols have also the "A" stamped on various locations like the barrel or the grip plates (or both). As described on page 300 of “Lugers At Random” by Kenyon, this is a Mauser (S/42) pressure-test Luger, pieced together with mismatched, unfinished oversize parts off the production line to test chamber pressures. Per Kenyon, less than 10 of these guns were ever produced, and his photographed example is, per him, the only one known to exist, However, our research indicates that eight, and possibly, as many as 10 of these guns are known to exist - it is nonetheless a VERY rare gun. I believe this gun was “liberated” from the production line before the pressure test hole was drilled in the barrel, however it may have never had a hole, there is debate currently as to weather or not all of these guns actually had a hole drilled. . Sans this hole, everything else matches Kenyon’s description, including the “A” marking on the barrel “UB” on the receiver atop the 1939 date and “LW” on the right side of the receiver. The grips are marked “EW” on the right grip and UB, A’ on the left grip. The gun has a rough finish, but overall condition (grips, finish and bore) is 85%. The only history we got on this gun from the seller was that he purchased this piece, and some other guns from the estate of a WWII Veteran who had just passed away. I would like to know what the value of this pistol is. I've been told anything from 10,000 to 25,000. I've even been told its too rare to price. I tried to upload my photos so ill try again later and see if I can get them up. Any help that you guys can give me I would be grateful.

Thanks Postino! Ill see what I can do.

Bryan, I look forward to photo's after reading your post. As far as pricing..I have to wonder. To realize the big bucks for even a rare pistol it would have to have great historical or personal interest. One that was a working tool such as this, even if there were few of them does not readily convert to a huge payday IMO.
pieced together with mismatched, unfinished oversize parts off the production line to test chamber pressures is of smaller interest that an all matching rare 1944 98% Krieghoff for the same $25.000?
While there may be someone interested in a pistol like the one you describe..he would have to be a very esoteric collector with deep pockets. There MAY be a collector out there like that though!

Its more of a curriosity of value. I know this isnt a Luger in 45 cal but like every historical firearm it has a story... a unique story. And maybe that story will appeal to someone out there eventually. For now Ill settle for an estimated price.

Kenyon is a good book, but its about 45 yrs old or more...

Also "I need help pricing a recently purchased Luger" - if you bought it, then you know the price. I assume you are hoping it is very, very expensive.

No gun is impossible to price, obviously you guys bought it, and if you paid almost nothing for it....

Are you Jackson Armory?

I did not see a min number of posts before you are allowed to post photo's???

I looked in the admin section....

From what I can see the top cannon does not match the frame? Can you rundown the matched or mismatched parts? Firing pin, barrel, toggle pin, grips etc?

From the description in Kenyon there was a hole in the barrel for this pressure test..This seems to be without as per your description but a further look at serial numbers could shed some light here.

Interesting piece. I think for pricing purposes authentication is in order. If the pistol will stand up to a through inspection.. pricing would be worthwhile. If it cannot be authenticated pricing is a moot point.

Second to all the serial numbers is to wash out the whiting from the symbols etc. to determine their method of application. Engraved or stamped. That should again shed some light.

It seems the theory that this is Mauser S/42 Precision/Accuracy Test Luger is somewhat odd considering that the pistol is made up of a strange combination of mismatched parts?

The frame, the top cannon and the sideplate all appear to be mismatched.

Ed... No I purchased it from Jackson's and I have actually wanted this piece for a while believe it or not. Read about this particular model while surfing through Luger literature. I bought it for a couple grand and yes I would like this investment to be a wise one... I'm not going to purchase a firearm for a couple thousand and hope its worthless. I wanted the opinion of subject matter experts. In researching the pistol there is a lack of information on this firearm which includes price... Want to make sure I didn't pay too much for something that isn't worth the metal scrapped.

Jerry Sounds good. How do I go about authenticating the pistol?

It is always possible to pick up a 'sleeper' which this one might be.

I sure didn't say it was worthless, I said that you were hoping it was very valuable.

I have seen too many folks come on with a luger, and they have little knowledge and assume that the gun is very valuable. It sounds like you did some reading ahead of time.

Did you ask Joop what he thought it was worth?

I've done as much research as I can from a hospital bed lol. I remembered a lot of stuff from research I've done before and since I'm having a hard time finding anymore I've turned to you fine gentleman. I do hope it's worth more than what I purchased but I'm not holding my breath. Again since I've had a hard time finding any info on anything on this pistol let alone what it's worth I turn to Luger forum. I haven't been able to get in contact with him but would love to hear anything he has to say about the firearm.

Bryan, I am sure another Member will see this post and have better knowledge of this particular model than I ever will.

My main thrust is to get an accurate look at it. What's under the grips..the various serial numbers and wash off the white on the symbols to see if they are stamped or engraved. Pretty basic stuff to analyze the pistol. That will all be necessary no matter who comes next to give an opinion.

Did the pistol come with a magazine?

Sometimes very rare or seldom seen pistols can be difficult as there are so few examples to compare them to/with. It would be hard to call up any kind of expert on a pistol where there are so few of them.

Basically, Kenyon's description is a collection of BS. Ignore it.

As Joop stated in his book, these pistols were available for the Mauser test firing crew to practice their shooting skills. They were not intended for pressure test purposes at all.

these pistols were available for the Mauser test firing crew to practice their shooting skills.

If that's what they are.. and I have no reason to doubt Gerben or Joop..then they wind up being a mismatched shooter Luger with odd markings. Some historical significance but not enough to justify a great deal of money?

Interesting to see if there are mod's. to the sights, how the trigger pull is, if they were extraordinarlily accurate, etc.
dju

Well, they are bottom of the barrel type pistols which have been shot, shot and shot again and probably have been repaired a zillion times.

But they come from the bottom of Mauser's own factory barrel and are rare beasts. They formed part of the production and QA-process at Mauser, so that makes them kinda special.

Gerben, Now we know what they are..Do you have any opinion on what one would be worth? I don't think it's in the $10,000 to $25,000 bracket..even with their rarity and cool markings I can't figure more than $2500 maybe?

I remember seeing this gun offered by the snake-oil salesmen at Jackson Armory a couple months ago for about $9000.00...please tell us you didnt pay that! :eek:

Yikes!

We are talking the same Luger on this thread..............

Looks like the same one to me.

From March 2011, same pistol?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...auser+pressure

William

more info

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...auser+pressure

YES...............

Look at the "L" on the grip, (corresponding to the "LW" on the frame), which a subsequent owner converted to an "E" with a pocket knife. Look at ALL with markings carved into the wood grips. This is CLEARLY the same pistol.
The current owner may not wish to confirm what he actually paid for it, but it is the same pistol advertised by Jackson Arms.

No I did not pay the advertised gunbroker price. The price was bumped up to cover the cost of the auction site. I paid less than 10 for it. If wanted to ask someone's opinion as to what they think its worth then you don't lead with "oh by the way I paid this much for it... Now what do you think it's worth" I wanted an untainted opinion that is all. Lets get back to the original meaning of the post... I wanted to see what you guys would say about it so I could have an honest 3rd party opinion of the pistol. I know some if not most of you have your feels about Jackson's one way or another. I forgot to crop out their card... Again I wanted an untainted opinion about the pistol strictly based on what it is and not where it came from.

Bryan, I have nothing but a warm fuzzy feeling for Jackson Armory and no animus whatever towards them. That being the case I think less than 10 is about 7-8 grand more than what one would be worth to me. But I have no passion for this rare pistol. It is rare and historical..that much is certain. You paid what you believe it was worth to you and that's hard to criticize.

Jerry,
That's exactly it. I'm not trying to 'flip it' or hock it. I was just excited like I posted before about seeing this pistol years before in a book and just happen to come across it years later. I was just looking for the opinion of the webs resident experts on Lugers. The chances that I would remember the pistol ( I have memory problems because of a TBI ) then come across it is crazy... I still get butterflies thinking about it. I appreciate the help I have received from everyone and if anyone has anything else they can add to it or inform me on this pistol I would be very greatful.
Bryan

Hi Brian, A belated welcome to the forum! I want to thank you for posting this interesting gun. While it's certainly true that it's very rare, it's also very easy to fake, which is why it's provenance is so important. While Jackson Arms may not have a reputation for bargains, as far as i know no one has accused them of selling fakes. If this gun had originated from some other sources, that I can't name, it would be another matter.
As to value, although as I said earlier, this gun is rare, collectors who are looking for this variation are rare also. I imagine that if you tried to resell it you could get 2 to 3 thousand, but if you tried to replace it you might have to pay over 10.
Regards, Norm

interesting read

The only answer is put it up for sale and see what happens.

As that has been done, you know currently worth under 2k (you were the only one that actually paid any money for it, you did not bid, no one else offered that, so as a subset of one you did not set the value but bought it on speculation (its not collectible until there is a market).

If it shoots we know its worth maybe $600 to $750. Thats its present known value.

What it might do in the future, anyone's guess.

Values are based in what people want. There is no inherent value like an ounce of gold.
If interest goes away the most rare gun in the world is worth nothing. If suddenly people want old test guns then it goes up. Obviously that has not happened.

If there is no interest , the bottom line is its value is that of a shooter. Under 1k for sure.

seller's ad from their site

http://www.jacksonarmory.com/JA/hand...hp?mainID=8368

How about some helpful answers instead of 'its at a shooter price'. As someone who likes unusual guns, many times it takes a hard core / unusual collector to see something rare (also makes it harder to sell later), but the answers I have seen here range from 'its a shooter' to blah, blah about Jackson Armory to its fairly rare. Its a fact of life that a unusual gun is going to cost more, but yes, have many fewer buyers.
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I don't really know, but I have noticed the last few months that there is less helpful answers than the feeling that some guys are more concerned with less than helpful answers and being funny, at the owners expense.

You have something in your collection now that is unique.

If it makes you happy to have it then you paid the right price so enjoy. You probably would not find another.

Who knows where the market will take it down the line if you decide to sell.

Most of the things I buy are not with re sale in mind. I buy em cause I want em. Likely my heirs will have to suffer their rise or fall.

Ed, and Jerry have both hit the nail on the head here. I have noticed several on this forum that were asking the most basic questions here a year or two ago, offering some pretty techinical advise on fairly rare pieces here on the forum. I may not voice my opinion here enough at times, but it is because people with more knowledge and years experiance under their belt will state pure fact on a particular item. I sit back and learn from some of the best in our hobby. (or is it a sickness at times) There are many on the two forums that should be teaching at a university. I fear giving an answer to a newcomer that is only partially right, or incomplete, and send them down the wrong path. All opinions are a good thing here, but should state it is an opinion, not expert advise. Their is no offense intended to anyone here, but would hate to see this forum go the way of many others out there on the net.

John

Truly a fascinating story and a truly historic pistol. At its most basic, it's nothing more than a mismatched shooter. But, unlike every other mismatched shooter you see on the interweb, just try to replace this one.

As any collector of anything knows, the price paid doesn't just reflect market value, it reflects personal value. I've paid a bit much for several items just because I really wanted them or because their value to me was worth more than a dollar amount.

Overall, a cool find. Does anyone know of the other examples? Do they still exist?