Another new guy, new to Lugers
 

My late father left me an interesting 1898 8mm Mauser rifle which I have enjoyed researching as well as occasionally shooting. When a friend in a financial bind called to say he needed to sell a Luger given to him by the late father of another mutual friend, the potential for a new investigation project got the better of me. Research here would have told me that this is a more complicated proposition that I had imagined.

The pistol was brought home from WWII by the third friend's father, who reported it having been an officer's sidearm. From what I have read here it appears to be of commercial production, all the serial numbers appear to match and it is in very good condition. The guy I got it from had shot it a few times, but was apparently shooting .380 ammo in it. 9mm rounds chamber and cycle correctly, though I have not yet fired it.

In spite of the breach date stamping, the matching number magazine has an aluminum base plate, which one of the previous posts here indicates would seem a mid '30s production run. The proof stamps on the barrel and the caliber designation I understand, as with the receiver proof. The marking just forward of the date stamp I have yet to find and could use help with, as well as the stamp in the magazine well, of which I have yet to get a really good photo.

Any information anyone has interest in providing would be appreciated.

Few more photos
 

Couple more....

First, Chip, welcome to the forum...

Next, don't ever shoot .380 (9mm Kurz) ammo out of this pistol. You'll damage it.

Next, consider not shooting it at all. Damaging this remarkable piece of history would really devalue it...

You have a pistol that was made before WW-I. Your Luger is one of the later C/B C/U C/G proofed pistols, and dates from 1911 or 1912. It was a commercial pistol sold privately to an officer. I'm pretty sure that the "Prv" marking confirms that it was privately owned at some point in it's history.


It made it through the war, and was taken into service during the Weimar period between the wars (the 1920 mark is a property mark, not a date). It was reworked at that time, and the sear safety was added so that it could be used in police service.

Then it was probably used during the late Weimar period and into the second world war.

The magazine is from the mid to late 1930s. It's probable that your magazine has police markings. Please post a picture of the base. Ah - you just posted it. It is a police magazine with Weimar markings.

I can't judge the finish from the photos, but it's likely that it is either original or a very old refinish.

Your pistol is probably in 9mm Luger. A No. 2 pencil should fit easily down the barrel.

Do you have any specific questions?

Marc

Welcome to the forum Chip, nice pistol.

Wow, obviously came to the right place, thanks Marc! And thanks, Gary.

The number two pencil does fit easily down the barrel, with a good bit of wiggle room to spare. I don't know how often it would have been fired with the 9mm Kurz, but I have no need to fire it myself. All the same, I will try to find a gunsmith to check for damage.

What baffles me about the pistol is its condition. Even if refinished before the war, it is hard to comtemplate (for me) it surviving it and coming home like this, much less making it another 58 years in this condition. The only wear in the finish I find is between the grips toward the triggerguard (as seen in the first pics), the backstrap has little to none. The nickel plate on the body of the magazine is substancially worn, though. The trigger, safety lever, retainer part opposite the magazine release button and the disassembly lever under the breach all display a somewhat "brassy" finish.

The question that comes to mind will sound monotaneous and typical, but I assure you that it is asked for a different reason than when usually posed. The guy I got the luger from is a good friend and in really tough financial shape. While I gave him $1,400 for it and would love to keep it if valued there about, if it is worth much more I would feel compelled to sell it and give him the difference. All values are subjective, but was what I gave him a "reasonable" price?

I didn't mention earlier but I have several (now banned) HK items, so the Mauser/HK/DWM connection interests me. Addition of this piece to the collection has a symmetry.

It was probably refinished after the war when brought back.

It would normally have wear on the high edges if it was original fiinish and was being carried in service.

I am leaning towards a very good reblue. If so I'm thinking you paid on the high end for a shooter.

If it turns out to be original than you did well.

Hopefully we will get some other opinions.

Does it has a hold open?

Your pistol has a Police sear safety. It's unusual to see the Crown G on the chamber. It did not originally come with the aluminum bottom magazine..the wood one it came with was replaced by this one when it went into Police service. It was issued with 2 maybe 3 matching magazines with aluminum bottoms.. #1 was the primary mag and #2 and likely a #3 have gone AWOL.
I have seen quite a number of Police pistols that went through a refurbishment either by Simson or Mauser. Does the firing pin have flutes? Is it numbered to the pistol?
Is the toggle pin numbered?
It is likely that the pistol was refinnished when it went to the police for modification to a service pistol.

Hi Klaus,

Yes it does hold open.

Hi Jerry,

This is my first Luger and that ownership has only been since Wednesday, so I will go and find how to break this thing down and get your answers on the firing pin.

If the toggle pin is the lever with the checkered button just in front of and above the trigger, yes, it is numbered 62 with the rest.

The family of the WWII veteran that brought the pistol home say that it is in the condition in which it was brought home, then put up in a box in his closet; that being that the finish is what it was when it was in service and there has been no re-bluing.

Thanks.

Chip, You are at a severe disadvantage and surely need to know how to dismantle your pistol. I understand YouTube has some disassembly vidios.

The toggle pin is the rearmost axel pin of the toggle/bolt assembly. It is above the safety captured inside the the ears of the frame. Once the top cannon is off of the frame it is necessary to push this pin from right to left to remove it and then the bolt will slide rearward to remove the bolt/toggle from the forks. If this pistol has been through a Simson or Mauser rework it and the fluted firing pin will be numbered with the last 2 digits of your serial number.

Just found your post, Youtube is indeed where it was. Attached are more detailed pics. Figured out the toggle pin on disassembly, but not sure how the firing pin comes on out. They are both numbered with everything else I have seen so far.

Can you tell what you need from these pics or does it need to come apart further?

Chip, To remove the firing pin simply push on the slotted part with your index finger and turn to the left. You can also use the loading tool if you have one. This will rotate the firing pin guide to the left 90 degrees and line up the indexing lug and release the firing pin..The firing pin spring will push out the firing pin guide when lined up. Very simple. Look to see if the firing pin is fluted.

Here is the firing pin and the pistol in better light.

Chip, Excellent! Your pistol went through some sort of rework. It didn't come originally with this firing pin. It is typical of the Police pistols I have observed that have gone through a rework.

By any chance is there any sort of marking on the rear of the frame or bolt? Around where the lanyard staple is..

I will have to look a little later and get back, I don't see any marking but that could be overlooking it. Have to make an appearance at a birthday party shortly. Will get back on this after.

Thanks again,

Chip

Chip, Could be a re work mark somewhere on the pistol but maybe not too. With or without it..it's gone through an arsenal re work. The mark might indicate who did it. Either Mauser or Simson.

Also, Chip, the golden color found on the trigger, take down lever and ejector is called "Strawing". It's a means of oxide finishing accomplished by heating to a very specific temperature and quenching the metal.

Your pistol was originally Rust Blued. It's hard to judge the rework finish, but it is also most likely Rust Blued.

I think you paid a decent price for a police rework. Especially for one with this particularly long history and excellent condition. The Germans took good care of their tools. So did this Luger's owner after the war.

You may find a small proof or acceptance mark that relates to the rework.

Marc

Also, Chip, the golden color found on the trigger, take down lever and ejector is called "Strawing". It's a means of oxide finishing accomplished by heating to a very specific temperature and quenching the metal.

Marc, It is not necessary to quench straw. Straw is achieved and let to cool, then oiled.

Thanks Jerry and Mark, the technical details interest me very much. As for the value, a weekend of fooling with the Luger had me quietly hoping the value wasn't substancially more than what was paid for it. Without the compunction to send the friend I got it from more money, there would be no need to pass it along. I have an HK SR9 on consignment at a local gun store, the thought process had already started to run toward compensating him out of that sale, had the Luger value gone higher.

After looking all over the pistol I have yet to find an unidentified marking other than the crowned G on top of the chamber. You just don't think about how many differents surfaces there are, or even how many different parts make up this weapon, until you start to looking for marks.

I haven't cleaned anything yet other than a wiping with a paper towel. Could there potentially be a mark under the grips? Could the crowned G have anything to do with the reworking?

Could the crowned G have anything to do with the reworking?

No..The Crown G is an Imperial marking done many years before the re work. It is just as likely there is no re work mark. Some were some were not. The fact of the changed out and re numbered parts tell us it was reworked and my guess is by Mauser. If it were Simson they had a habit of marking pistols with an Eagle 6 in various and sundry places.

Chip..In reviewing your photo's I just noticed something! There is what I suspect is a Simson Eagle 6 on your magazine bottom. Can you look closely at this Eagle and tell if there is a 6 beneath it? There has to be because this IS a Simson Eagle.
Also look for this same Eagle on the back flat portion of the spine of the magazine at the bottom. Ed Tinker, or Dwight Gruber would know the answer to this..the Authors of Simpson Lugers, Ed, and Police Lugers. Dwight and Ed. I don't know if the Simson Eagle would be present but please have a look.

OH..And no marking under the grips will tell us anything..mostly inspectors markings there but will be unknowns.

Got out the jeweler's loupe, if there is anything under the eagle, all that is left is what could be the faint rounded very short curved line-or it could be my imagination. Now on the bottom of the spine of the magazine is what appears to be a "K" with a star-burst appearing symbol in the top of the "K", as shown below.

Here is another each of the eagle and the K, neither very clear. It appears a tripod will have to be used to get any more detail in the photos.

Jerry,

That particular c/G is a stamp which shows up early in the Weimar period. I have seen a couple of examples on the top of the receiver but it shows up mored often on the side, in conjunction with a post-war proof.

--Dwight

Dwight, That particular c/G is a stamp which shows up early in the Weimar period. Must have been a leftover as it's an Imperial stamp. I wonder why they would use an Imperial stamp? Any ideas?

Chip, The Eagle is Simson, not doubt about it and the small curvature..I can see it in the photo..is the top of a 6.
The Star K on the spine is a Police marking.
I would have to say because of the Simson marking on the magazine it's a strong possibility that the pistol was refurbished by Simson.

Jerry,

The stamp shows up early and disappears fairly soon--can't give you dates offhand. I would guess--pure speculation--that the proofing officer didn't have a new stamp so he used one that was convenient. The ad hoc nature of the stamp is reinforced by the fact that it was not stamped in a consistent location.

Also, note that the crown differs from the standard WWI inspector marks.

--Dwight

Jerry, so we are looking at a mid '30s magazine in a pistol most probably re-manufactured by Simpson. I see in the History tab of the site that the Nazis took over the Simpson plant when assuming power. Is there any information available to date that takeover? Is it known if any re-manufactured was done elsewhere with the Simpson machinery after it was nationalized?

Ok, Wikipedia says the Nazis took over in '34 but that the plant kept working. My attempts at projecting a date by assuming an end date for the Simson plant won't hold water.

Is it known if any re-manufactured was done elsewhere with the Simpson machinery after it was nationalized?

This is a fairly moot point concerning your pistol. The Simson Eagle 6 marking on your magazine leads me in the direction of a refurbishment by Simson. That Eagle 6 stamp would have disappeared when Simson did.

I would have to look at this in person, but I don't know that I would say it has been reblued after the war / restoration.

I have not looked at the 2nd page, but what I see is a pre-WW1 luger that was bought by someone, most likely an officer and either was still held by him after the war or was now Gov't property (1920) as privately held lugers did not require to be marked. In the late 1930's it received a sear safety and likely was reworked then, the base is not marked the best, if good, then likely a armorer stamping replacement; if by Simson then I would expect an exact stamp.

After the sear safety, it then would have gotten a rear toggle marking and new firing pin (fluted).

Some of that is a guess, but fairly logical.

Ed

Thanks for weighing in on this, Ed. I started writing this tonight, then got a call from the friend from whom the Luger came.

I believe the family of the bring back vet, that the pistol was in a box in his closet virtually from the end of the war until it got to my friend's gun safe five years ago and that it had no work done on it in that time frame.

My first thought upon seeing the pistol, even though it was reported to have been an officer's pistol during WWII, was that it must have sat out much or all of the war in a drawer or a ceremonial box given the condition it was in.

I typed most of that above, and then got the call. The younger of the vet's sons confirmed to the friend that sold me the gun that dad had taken the it from the body of a dead officer after a firefight. He also said there was a movie made about dad's unit, which he said was called the devil's brigade.

Dad's name was Bennie Buckelew. A short search of the devil's brigade by its proper name as the First Special Service Force lead to the roster at:

http://www.firstspecialserviceforce....SSF_Roster.doc

And there on the roster was Bennie.

The ceremonial box you might be referring to is known as a desk drawer.

Absolutely.

Forum,

If you would, please indulge me.

It is my intention to send the following letter to the friend from which I got the subject of this post (he is a hermit where the internet is involved) . It is not my intention to merely reduce those of you that are willing to read this down to proof readers, but I would appreciate insights into necessary editing of any of the following which you may find incorrect, either slightly or glaringly. Certainly, the addition of neglected or forgotten information would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Chip


Hey,

After reading the luger blogs, there is a lot of good, readily available, well researched information on these guns, and their history. Information that has been documented, but there also seems to be much misinformation and guessing going around about much to do with them.
Quite a few were made, something like 760,000, before the end of WWI. A real "ramping up" of production for WWII began when Hitler seized the Jewish owned Simson plant (1934), confiscated its machinery and went into war preparation mode. At the same time, Mauser ignored the Treaty of Versailles and restarted its production. The point is, there are a ton of these guns out there from the Imperial, Wiemar and Third Reich eras, in varying conditions and that were made both for military and commercial purposes. This fragments the collectors into various areas of interest and, accordingly, fragments opinions of value.

When you add to the mix that there are less than scrupulous individuals creating bogus pedigrees, building aggregated guns or faking particular models by replacing parts, you see why the collectors that pay big bucks are very hesitant to do so without a very solid history on a given gun, unless that it is a very rare and documented specimen.

Attached is a list where several authors/collectors have gotten together in an attempt to document as many "early" lugers as possible to help in establishing their authenticity. These guys all seem to be gun show fiends and gather much of the information first hand that way and through the blogs postings. The serial number of this pistol (49962) would seem to fall on page 24 of 60.


The things that the members of the Lugerforum blog have stated that they believe about this pistol are:

It was probably manufactured in the 1911-1912 time period.

It is a 9mm Parabellum, according to barrel markings.

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser.

It was a commercial production gun. As officers were required to buy their own side arm, this is consistent with officer ownership.

The 1920 marking is a property marking by the German government, indicating it was potentially government owned at one point.

It was re-manufactured to add a safety sear, a magazine operated "hold-open", a new magazine and other updates. The magazine bottom was serialized to match the rest of the update and was made of aluminum, indicating this was done in the middle '30s. Markings also indicated that it could have been in service as a police side arm at some point.

There is debate as to whether or not it has been re-blued.

According to the blog, whether the pistol is original finish or not could determine whether or not it was worth what I paid you for it; if it had been re-blued, probably not.



All this came before the association with Bennie Buckelew's unit was known or mentioned. That his unit was predecessor to Special Forces/Rangers groups, and with the devil's brigade's accomplishments in WWII. there could be an added prestige attributed to the pistol, if his connection to the pistol can be formally corroborated. There could be additional value provided by written confirmation of the where the pistol was obtained by Mr. Buckelew, depending on the details of the event.

It seems prices for these pistols is all over the map and valuation is unpredictable at best. Some discussion has gone on as to whether the collector market for lugers is growing or shrinking. It has been predicted that with the aging and passing of much of the baby boomer group that have immediate family involvement with family members that brought these guns home, and with a vast variety of "collectible" lugers to choose from, that values may drop in the near future. I don't particularly agree with that reasoning, but I can see where a lot of faking and over-evaluations has apparently gone on. This has caused fakes and irrational pricing and thus may cause excess caution and skepticism to hinder future pricing increases.

The last two paragraphs not withstanding and unless something has been missed by the guys examining the photographs, what I paid for the pistol was probably valued about right given the speculative nature of the condition of the finish. Anything lent to value further will have to be attributable to how the pistol was obtained by Bennie Buckelew and the corresponding verification received from the Buckelew family.

Let me know what you get from them.

Chip

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser.

DWM was not a division of Mauser.

Thanks, Jerry. I misunderstood when someone referred to DWM as a "daughter" company to Mauser.

A pretty clear summary of the discussion. Some nitpicky factual corrections below.

--Dwight


After reading the luger blogs, there is a lot of good, readily available, well researched information on these guns, and their history. Information that has been documented, but there also seems to be much misinformation and guessing going around about much to do with them.

Quite a few were made, something like 760,000, before the end of WWI. A real "ramping up" of production for WWII began when Hitler seized the Jewish owned Simson plant (1934), confiscated its machinery and went into war preparation mode.
Simson was the official repair company during the Weimar (between wars) period, and the only company allowed to produce new P08s for the Reichswehr, the Weimar German army. Simson P08 production ended when the company was nationalized and its manufacturing resources were distributed amongst other arms manufacturers.

At the same time, Mauser ignored the Treaty of Versailles and restarted its production.
P08 production "ramped up" for wartime when Mauser was awarded the army's P08 contract. Army production began in 1935.

The point is, there are a ton of these guns out there from the Imperial, Wiemar and Third Reich eras, in varying conditions and that were made both for military and commercial purposes. This fragments the collectors into various areas of interest and, accordingly, fragments opinions of value.

When you add to the mix that there are less than scrupulous individuals creating bogus pedigrees, building aggregated guns or faking particular models by replacing parts, you see why the collectors that pay big bucks are very hesitant to do so without a very solid history on a given gun, unless that it is a very rare and documented specimen.

Attached is a list where several authors/collectors have gotten together in an attempt to document as many "early" lugers as possible to help in establishing their authenticity.
Is that the Commercial database?

These guys all seem to be gun show fiends and gather much of the information first hand that way and through the blogs postings. The serial number of this pistol (49962) would seem to fall on page 24 of 60.

The things that the members of the Lugerforum blog have stated that they believe about this pistol are:

It was probably manufactured in the 1911-1912 time period.
More likely 1911, possibly late 1910.

It is a 9mm Parabellum, according to barrel markings.

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser. Both Mauser and DWM were independent companies, controlled by a financial conglomerate which also controlled a number of other arms manufacturers. It is not correct to say that either DWM or Mauser was a "division" of the other.

It was a commercial production gun. As officers were required to buy their own side arm, this is consistent with officer ownership.

The 1920 marking is a property marking by the German government, indicating it was potentially government owned at one point. The 1920 property marking was a mandate of the German army and police for a brief period in 1920. This pistol was assuredly in government control at that time,.

It was re built probably better to say that it was repurposed to police use, there are no mixed-parts characteristics of rebuilding.

to add a safety sear sear safety,

a magazine operated "hold-open", Commercial P08s were sometimes manufactured with a hopld-open. From your pictures there is no evidence that a hold-open was added later.

a new magazine and other updates. The magazine bottom was serialized to match the rest of the update the pistol's serial number. The digit 1 indicates that this was the pistol's primary magazine.

and was made of aluminum, indicating this was done in the middle '30s. The production magazine base material was changed to aluminum in 1925. It is most likely that this magazine base was a replacement part manufactured before 1933.

Markings also indicated that it could have been in service as a police side arm at some point. The sear safety is an indication that this pistol was in police service after 1933.

Thank you Dwight, this is very instructive.

The next objective is to find a relatively close gun show, with experienced Luger guys scheduled to be there, for an "in-person" inspection of the pistol.

Preferably one where there is no accidental shooting for the media to exploit.

Dwight,

Missed your question in the text. The answer is yes, I was trying to point him to the Commercial Data Base.