Simson Suhl Luger
 

Hello,

Looks like I'm sold (almost) on my very first Luger. It's going to be a very nice, all orginal, matching number luger, and I'm excited! The only issue, and might be fine given the overall rarity of these lugers, is the fact that the mags are not numbered to the gun. But other than that everything looks just great. I'll share some pitures as soon as the package has been delivered.

Here is my question - I'm planning on putting her up and this purchase will be more like an investment. Since the mags are not matching I'm somewhat concerned that "collectability" isn't as good vs. an all number matching model complete with mags and holster.

But I really like this model luger especially since it is made by Simson, and Simson has a long history of making firearms (would be a perfect match to our Prussion Potsdam manufactured in 1844 by Simson/Suhl).

However, your input will be greatly appreciated and maybe there is somebody present in this forum knowing all there is to know about Simson Suhl & Co.? Thanks!

Post some pictures...

We have a Simson expert on the forum.

All matching with incorrect magazine is not so much of an issue, but does drop value some.

Is the magazine a Simson mag?

Bigger issues for investment consideration are:

- Originality of finish
- All matching parts (all Simson parts were E/6 or E/33 proofed, right down to the screws)
- Condition

Before buying this, I would invest the time to study Simson Lugers. Ed Tinker has a great book on them.

Marc

Thanks, Marc. Good to know there are experts available! The mags are original; they are marked with an E/6. The rest of the gun has E/6 and E/33 marks all over. I understand Simson was a very unique manufacturer and pretty much everything has been proof marked on their guns - I have been promised this luger is "number matching inside and outside"!

The finish is great - only some minor wear. I've seen people use %age #'s to describe the finish but these numbers vary from person-to-person and are very subjective.

Thanks

With only about 12,000 made over Simson & Co.'s history, they are one of the most unique and rare of Lugers.

Most don't value them as highly as the Krieghoff pistols. I particularly like Simson - partially because of their unique history as well.

Marc

I hate hearing "investment" that usually means the person is looking for a pretty gun and I don't trust many pretty guns.

See if you can get pictures before buying.

See if the stock lug is numbered to the gun.

And having a matching mag is a big plus, not expected.

What is the serial number?

Thanks, the ser# is 5412. Pictures are available online from seller - I haven't been able to take pictures myself since the transaction is still pending. Don't know for sure about the stock lug but the seller appears to be very trustworthy so my answer would be "yes".

This has been on three websites since I started my database.

From the Simpson LTD website I copied the following information, it is possible that the later sellers do not know this information:

5412
e6 E6 E33 E6 E
possible reblue, now on Simpson's...

That info will be in our new Police Lugers book coming out next week...

Thanks! Interesting - this information is listed on the Simpson LTD website? I'm have been offered this gun from a different source...

And take very seriously into account the "possible reblue" when negotiating price!!!

Marc, I've seen this posted here before, and I have to take issue...

I don't think any Luger can be expected to have a matching magazine...If it does, it may add to the value (to a collector), but IMHO an unmatched magazine does not detract from the value...

Just my $.02, and worth every penny... ;)

And sometimes adds! I've sold off rare magazines, which came from run of the mill shooters for almost as much as the purchase price of the pistol!

The matching mag bit is interesting. When I started collecting 45 or so years ago matching mags were very uncommon. Now they seem to be very common. I wonder why? Bill

... :D ;) :p ...

Rich, I agree that it is most unusual to find a matching Luger with it's one or two matching magazines. In general, this seems to add considerably to the value of the "rig".

So... the I think best way to think of the matching magazine is that it is unusual, and that it adds to the value of an all matching Luger.

Still the same effect. Value of matching Luger with unmatched magazine generally less than value of matching Luger with matched magazine(s), unless something happens to you like Doug's experience...

I once bought a shooter with what I thought was a police magazine. Turned out that it was a police aluminum base married to the wrong tube... Oh well!

- - - - - -

On the faking that you point out, I'm beginning to think that the only way to fight it is to start documenting provenance as soon as possible through a central database. Ownership; detail photos; descriptions; unique characteristics. With the new comprehensive Sturgess publication, the fakes are going to probably get even more accurate.

Marc

Like those who collect Nazi medals and memorabilia.

Advanced collectors will no longer buy anything, unless it is directly out of a Vet's estate. The fakes are plentiful and well done.

As per the seller the gun is all original - no reblue! There will be an inspection period for me to determine whether or not the gun matches the description - how can I determine a gun has been reblued? I don't think I have the experience...

Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap.

You could hire someone to appraise it.

You could post well shot photos here, but that is somewhat risky since it's hard to give finish estimates from photographs.

You've been describing a mid to higher end investment Luger. As the prices go up, the interest in faking things goes up proportionally. Thus, so does the risk.

So, unable to judge, I would not pay more than a reblue is worth, unless I could confirm it's original finish.

Marc

[QUOTE=mrerick;224133]Now, there's where the study, investment in time and travel, and the judgement comes in... It's something I refer to as "Luger University" and it doesn't come cheap.


Unfortunately, well all start somewhere not knowing nothing at all. That's where I found myself today. I spent all last weekend reading about lugers, and my wife wasn't too thrilled about it... However, I bought the online version of Aarron Davis's book "Standard Cataloge of Lugers". Very interesting, I learned a lot but the more I read the more I knew that I don't really know anything. I'm sure you've experienced that feeling sometimes in the past...

For somebody like me it's not justifyable to just travel up North to look at a gun especially with my expertise. And I don't really know anybody that is really into Lugers - until I found this forum! Which I'm glad I did!

I don't know if it would be appropriate to include a link to his website where this luger is shown? Please advise.

Just copy his pics to your HDD and then attach them to this thread... ;)

I would suggest you read the reviews on Aaron's book first, as there are many mistakes in it.

I am curious to know where you are seeing this luger, as my records show just the places it has been, not by date....

Be sure to get a 3-5 day non-firing inspection period if you buy it. Given that prior owners have had doubts about the originality of the finish, that is not too much to ask. And if you are ready with a camera and the knowledge to use it we will try to give it the benefit of our experience so you can either send it back OR be comforatble in your purchase. But like Marc said giving opinions from photos can be an uncertain business.
Where are you located? There may be an experienced collector in your area that you could show it to.
Regarding Davis' book, I use it too but it is not Gospel and it is not popular here.
dju

I started acting on my interest in Lugers just a few years ago. My meager knowledge pales at the feet of the others on this forum that so kindly share their experience and skill.

With that said, I've been rather conservative on what I bought, and learned as I went. I have some nice things now, and some that would have less collector interest. So far, I haven't had any serious surprises. I expect that day will come at some point; but (of course) hope I don't make major mistakes.

I've made good investments in the books that have been authored over the years about our firearms. They have saved me quite a bit of time and trouble.

What knowledge I've managed to gain, I try and share back to the forums. That's what make a community, and the strength of that community is important.

The best way to learn to judge a finish is in person. We have a collector oriented gun show here in NC that I've attended. There I saw some outstanding examples of Lugers in original high percentage finish. The owner graciously allowed me to closely inspect them, and that has helped me ever since.

Marc

There you go - let's do this anonomously first before disclosing further details:

No front sight blade???

Maybe this helps:

no

you simply can't tell in small pictures like this, and especially in this color

Ed,

would you be willing to give me a phone call to discuss. I'm somewhat hesitant to disclose all the sellers information on this forum. Don't think that's appropriate. Please let me know. Thanks.

no, I don't do phone calls, hate to talk on the phone

you are welcome to email me, notice I said email, please don't PM me

Where do I find your email address?

click on my user name and it will show email. It has been a long week and I am trying to reinstall everything onto a new laptop, so sorry if I sound short.

or click ed_tinker@hotmail.com

ed

Andre'

This is originally a rust blued pistol. There should be visible "halos" around the serial numbers on the barrel, and they should conform to the shape of the stamped digits (since they are caused by the metal stress that resulted from the stamping). They should not have the appearance of daubing a chemical onto the s/n digits.

What do these look like on your Simson?

Marc

Marc

Marc, not my Simpson yet! I'm glad I posted this thread here in this forum before making this purchase, and I got lots of good advice and information about this gun. Looks like this gun has had 4 previous owners; don't know in what time frame but it makes me wonder why? Also, I have to admit this gun looks simply fantastic, maybe too fantastic for it's age and there might be some color issues as well. Reblued? However, for the time being I'm taking a step back from this purchase since I'm unable to inspect this gun in person although I really tempted to just buy it! Are there gun shows for Lugers in particular here in the US where I could find and inspect one in person. Or maybe an auctioneer with a great reputation for NOT offering faked Lugers? Any advice will be greatly appreciated, and thanks to everyone for "straightening" me out!

In North Carolina, there is a collector show that I found several Lugers at:

North Carolina Gun Collector's Association
Salisbury, NC

It's held a couple of times a year... About 100 tables...

Marc

Often the reason is 'trading up'. Selling the old for a better one.

Auctioneers are not Luger collectors; they can't be expected to know every little nuance of Luger lore that separates the gems from the fakes. And there is a widespread gentleman's agreement among collectors to NOT broadcast the tips that identify fakes. Or the unique characteristics that identify genuine rare or original Lugers.

Some think this is an exercise in futility, as there are many excellent books with detailed photos of rare/original Lugers pointing out what to look for. There have been many spirited arguments leading to member bans over this subject.

/rant :banghead: