1920 PARTS Navy Luger Carbine
 

Hello forum members
I have an interesting Luger Carbine that i offer up for critical
review . I do not know much about much about lugers much less
Luger carbines. I will try to attach photographs . The luger was obtained about 20 years ago by a relative that has kept it in his
display case. He now is in his mid seventies and wants to sell it .I think it is a beautiful pistol . He says that when he bought it at a Houston Gun Show many years ago he was told that it was a Commercial Luger that was imported to the US .He said it had been made out of surplus parts like old Navy frames .{That is why it has a Navy sightAttachment 29772
[ and since it was sent to the us an American crest on the receiver. It has all matching number. The barrel and extension have the full number 48930. The take down , sideplate,toggle on the rear below the site,all have 30. the barrel has germany located just in front of the extension. There is a crown over n on the left side of the receiver and breechblock.
The forearm also has 930 stamped where I have seen others.
The forearm is longer than the normal carbine stock but I was told there was a lot of variation especially since this may have been a request order . Any how if there are any experts that wopuld like to comment I would be much appreciative since my relative is liquidating many of his Lugers and other collectible pistols and rifle that I have been seeing and wishing for years
Thank you very much for any opinions
Chuck Lobrano
I can have more pictures if needed or if these don't attach



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An American Eagle Navy Mannlicher Carbine. This one is way over my pay grade...
dju

It will be interesting to see how the ser. no. checks out with numbers on record for commercial navys or 1920 carbines.
Jack

I have a 1920 navy carbine with a serial number in the 37xxx range, but with
a long frame in .30 caliber. My fore stock in similar to the 1902 type. The full
stock that the above carbine has is very unusual.

a vertical crown n grip safety american eagle carbine with navy sights
very interesting thanks for posting

Is the stock iron numbered to match the pistol?

The forend is numbered 930 but I cannot see any numbering on the rear stock.
What is the difference in long and short frame?
Thanks Chuck

I dont know what it is, but the workmanship is very good...I'd love to have it. Should shoot very well with that LONG sight radius!

And where, oh where, is Eugene when we need him? Looks like his work to me...
dju

+1, and I'm still drooling. There's another such carbine with a long Mannlicher fore-stock on Gunbroker, or such, by "unknown gunsith" who may have been "inspired by Martz" I think it was relatively cheap. This one is really nice looking, even though this checkering on the fore-stock leaves a bit to be desired.

Are there any particular rules to set a value on this, or is it a case of the market simply determining a price--as in, it's worth what you can get for it?

Let's keep in mind that unless this Carbine, in this configuration came directly from the factory or is otherwise on the Curio and Relics list as being an accepted, historical variation, it may very well be an unregistered Short Barreled Rifle and subject to ATF regulations.

How long is the barrel from chamber to muzzle?

I think that about a year ago, checkpointcharlies.com had a similar carbine, more recently made as a "Guild Gun" carbine from Germany.

Could the "reproductions" definition in the ATF C&R list embrace this configuration? I know repro stocks are acceptable.

Marc

Found the link to the other one...guess I didn't do very well remembering the details.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/991015827...ack_Forest.htm

I'm pretty sure that one on GA is a Numrich barrel/forend...and repro board stock...

The one the OP has pictured is very nice...I like it... :)

Please note that the pistol featured on Gunsamerica has a 16" barrel, making it extempt from the NFA clauses.

The Pistol we are discussing may have serious issues. Unless it is proven to be an original, factory configuration from the DWM plant and/or it has been recognized by ATF to be a "Curio and Relic" pistol and registered on the C&R list, it may very well be considered an unregistered SBR.

To answer Marc's question; A modern stocked pistol or SBR CAN be legal if and only if, it is submitted to ATF and THEY determine it has sufficient collector/historical value to be included on the C&R list. These approvals for modern guns are few and far between, (I can only remember it happening for one or two commemoratives). While a "repro" stock is legal, it cannot be added to a "repro" Navy, Artillery or any other pistol, since this defeats the spirit of the "historically significant" clause in the C&R law.
The Carbine in question would certainly be a candidate for addition to the C&R list, if a pedigree indicating some uniqueness or otherwise important historical context can be produced.

How long does submission usualy take??

Doug,

Is this where a museum director nomination to the ATF comes in?

I would imagine that things would get difficult during the process since up until approved by the ATF for the list, it would be an unlicensed SBR.

Charles, is there a witness mark where the barrel and receiver are joined that shows it's the original barrel first installed on the receiver? (perfectly straight and even in depth)? Is a picture available?

Because of the flash reflection, I can't see if the trigger is strawed (which I assume). If so it is likely perfect in appearance.

In natural light, how does the woodgrain and finish / stain color compare between the stock and the foregrip and the frame grips?

BTW.... The following description is on the exemption list:

"Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16"."

Would that description apply to Charles' pistol? Would the Navy sight be normally on this commercial carbine?

Marc

VERY thin ice here.....you must apply to make a SBR with the ATF before you start construction of such...and if you appeal to the Feds to declare an existing SBR thats in your posession a Curio and Relic and they say no, guess what? You might as well have a Quad .50 halftrack in your backyard...you're doing felony time in the big house.

1920 navy carbine
 

I attached a picture of one in Kenyan.

I do not think there is any reason to panic about the legality of this gun. The quality and unusual construction of the piece raises enough probability that it is a legitimate 1920 Carbine that I seriously doubt that BATFE is going to take any interest in it. I am away from home right now but later this week I may ask Chuck for some additional photos to see if I can nail down a bit more detail.

Hello Marc and others
I will try to answer the questions
1 The trigger, takedown lever and safety are strawed
2 The witness marks are in perfect alignment and of identical depth however I can see it with a flashlight and reading glasses but the forearm extension makes it impossible to get a camera picture.
3the grips may have a little darker appearance but the grain is the same along with the checkering. the barrel has the full serial number located near the barrel and receiver junction then a crown over end about 2 inches out from the junction that is then followed with a Germany stamping 2 inches further
Thanks
Charles


++

Thanks Ron
I look forward to your further opinions
Chuck

I also agree that it is probably a legitimate, although rare Navy Carbine variation. I'm just saying Charles would sleep much more comfortably if he had the documentation to back up the carbine's origin.

Does the serial number fall in range of accepted Navy Carbines?? That would help!! I can only make out #37439 I think. Mine is simular although a commercial. I would agree it's legit based on the findings thus far!!

Thanks Eric
You have a very nice Luger . The number on the barrel and extension read 48930
I would also like to know if this is the correct range . My cousin would like to sell but he bought it for significantly less than he wants me to pay but of course I understand because he has had it so long and it is an investment for him
Thank You
Chuck Lobrano

Buy it if reasonable!!!!It can be your anchor in your collection!

CharlesL, did you ever actually mention the length of the barrel?

Buy it. How many do you see.

Ruby Ridge started over a technicality of 1/4". I wouldn't buy it without knowing the legal status.. just sayin..

According to Kenyan the barrel should be 11 3/4'

measured the barrel and it is 11 3/4 inch
Chuck

IMHO, based solely on the photographs that have been displayed, I believe the gun, and all stock fittings are original, and PROBABLY falls within the ATFE C&R definition that has been mentioned previously. BUT, the stock and the forearm appear to be reproductions.

The checkering on the stock and forearm does not seem to ME to be up to factory standards. Still, all in all, it is a fine looking Luger and would certainly display well on MY wall. :D

John I would also agree. The foward grip is identical inside like mine.Its' serial number in carved on the inside of the grip. I would bet there is more simular ones out there. Eric

The pic showing the back end of the fore-stock reveals lots of goofs in the checkering, mostly grooves that have run over the border line. Original "furniture" may not be perfect, but I think it would be better than this example.

Nonetheless, there's space available on my wall, too.:)

I would agree! Maybe a replacement.

A barrel marked "GERMANY" is usually an indication that the barrel was imported seperately.

Hi George, Could this example be one of the "Pacific" imports that took orders for custom length barrels? I seem to remember that from the last catalog I had a chance to look at years ago.

Land Of Bourchart has the catalogs you referring, 'Aberchrombie & Finch'

John, I checked my 1920's copy of the Pacfic Arms catalogue. It does not offer an this barrel length.

Very nice carbine, Eric. Eugene does good work...Eventually... :rolleyes: