1920 dwm
 

Hello,

Noobie here. I recently inherited a 1920 DWM from my uncle and was looking to get some more information on what you all though of it's condition and value. Also, I'd like to know more about the markings on the gun and what information that the markings convey. I realize that the 3038 is the serial number and that the other "38"s represent parts matched to this gun, but the other markings are a mystery.

Any comments are most appreciated.

Many thanks,
Patrick

Your pistol is a Weimar era, (post WW1 German Goverment) Police pistol, which was first issued to a unit and then possibly passed onto another unit. The Unit marking experts will weight in on the Unit mark on your grip.

The Military acceptance stamps on your gun are also of interest.

This is an interesting gun! Like Alan said, it looks like an early commercial that was re-directed to the Police. I'm noticing how it was re-numbered in military fashion, and rebarrelled. Is it 9mm or .30 Luger?
Is there any evidence of a stock lug on the lower rear grip strap?
dju

I believe that it's a 9mm (holding a ruler across the muzzle, the inside diameter appears to be 9mm).

stock lug? I'm not sure what that means or what to look for. I've had the gun apart and can take more pictures if necessary. Just let me know.

Thanks.

Looking at the pic of the magazine bottom there is no evidence of stock lug.

With the proof marks on the left side I would say this was originally a 1st issue then Weimar police. Since the 1st issue had no chamber marking the 1920 was added during it's reissue. The 1920 is a permissive stamp and not a true date. They also did not have a stock lug . Serial numbers were placed in commercial positions and then if reissued generally had military placement added. Looks like a nice luger with history. The small a on the frame is part of the serial number. (3038a ).Bill

Looks like a 1908 converted to police. Did belong to a signal unit(I think) before it was a police pistol. The 1920 stamp indicates government ownership I do believe. I like this one..

Marienwerder district police? Why would they proof the left side?

Does it have a holdopen latch and spring? It seems this pistol have several lives.

Interesting First issue P08, that was taken into Police service. Looking through Don Maus book, History Writ in Steel, if I've read it right it looks like the canceled mark looks to be a Police mark that may be from the Schupo district of Marienwerder/Westpreuben.
Thanks for sharing your P08.

pardon my ignorance but if you can tell me where to find this holdopen latch/spring, I can can take a picture. Pulling the toggle back with the magazine inserted, the breach stays open. Ejecting the magazine, the breach remains open until the toggle is pulled back and released. This sounds normal.

First Issue P08's originaly were not fitted with a Holdopen. Some were retroffited later, noticeable on the right side of the pistol. From what you have described it sounds like yours has a holdopen.

No. No holdopen present. See attached photo.

Also found addition marking on the barrel and inside the frame with the receiver removed.

Your pistol DOES have a holdopen, (see tip of its spring in the lower right corner of the above photo), which would make this pistol later than first issue, since there is no evidence of a retrofit on the outside of the pistol.

In looking closely at the photo of the side I see a mark that may be an added holdopen that has been finished to match the frame, although there is no proof mark. Perhaps a closer photo of this area would clarify.

KFS

Looking closely at the outside of the frame, I can see no evidence that anything has been modified. Attached are pictures of the holdopen with and without the spring in place. Surely looks like the frame was engineered this way.

Thanks!

The gun is a 1908 First Issue as evidenced by the proofs/acceptance marks on the left side of the receiver and lack of stock lug. The hold open has been added but either the frame was refinished at the time of police modification which obliterated the tiny hold open Erfurt inspection stamp, or the hold open may have been added by the police armory which would not have had an inspection stamp applied.
At any rate, it is an early WWI military piece that was subsequently acquired by a police unit, modified and given a 1920 property stamp during the Weimar era. Nice gun with an interesting history and in very nice condition considering its long service.

Rebarreled?
dju

Patrick, you have a very interesting gun. As stated above, it was reissued to the police after WWI and received the 1920 government (police) property stamp. Dave is correct in identifying the marking S.Ma.I.K.35. as being from the Schupo of the Marienwerder district --- specifically the command stationed in Elbing (Ma.I.). The K. is a little uncertain but, in the early 1920s, this command used letters to designate Hundertschaften (companies) and one other example of a K. from this unit is listed in HWIS Table 11-7.

The unit marking has been canceled and it was not replaced with S.Wpr.I. which was specified for this unit in the 1932 marking order. It is quite possible that the gun was surplused before that date and ultimately reissued to a Gemeindepolizei unit in the mid-1930s. Many of these smaller-city police did not mark their pistols and all unit marking of police weapons ceased in 1937. It probably received a sear safety but no mag safety sometime from about 1935 on, by which time mag safeties had been deemed a bad idea.

The barrel is definitely a replacement. It has an E/33 Simson proof and the number 2 on the bottom, the latter indicating manufacture by Simson in 1922. The Berlin Police Armory had purchased a number of these barrels and used them in reworking police P08s and LP08s from about 1928 onward. I suspect the rebarreling occured when the pistol was reissued in the mid-1930s. Does the barrel have the stamp PTV or TP (superimposed) over and eagle on the right side?

The pistol probably remained in police service through WWII.

Don et al, thanks for the great info. I'll have a closer look at the markings on the right side of the barrel when I get home on Sunday. (I'm currently at the shore in NJ, battening down the hatches in preparation for hurricane Sandy, headed this way).

I hope you weather the storm! Having gone through a number of hurricanes in NC and on the Gulf Coast, I know the anxiety.

Don, Right on! SP, Good luck with the "hatches". TH

Home again and examining the right side of the barrel does reveal some markings, which do look like letters or an eagle. Kind of hard for me to make out exactly what letters they are but they could be T and P. (see attached).

Also, after trying to determine exactly how the gun fires, it appears to me that perhaps the firing pin has been compromised. (see attached photos) I seem to recall my uncle saying as much some years ago, but had forgtten those comments until now. I know that he fought in WWII in Germany and brought the gun and a couple of daggers home from the war. Was it standard practice to disable the ability to fire the gun back then?

Given the gun's history and condition, does anyone an estimate of it's value? Can't say that I'm looking to sell, just curious.

Many thanks to all for the great info!

Best,
Patrick

Yes, your firing pin has had the ear sheared off. This can be fixed by a number of people, which would keep your pistol all original and matching.

Your FP is definately broken. I do have original unnumbered DWM good FPs available @$50 postpaid. You do have the correct intertwinded TP (technical police) marking for your correct police replaced barrel. TH

The TP/eagle was the firing proof of the Technische Polizeischule in Berlin. This organization contained the Berlin Police Armory. This proof began to be used in 1935-36 which is the earliest date for the barrel replacement. This is consistent with when the Gemeindepolizei were armed with P08s. This strongly suggests that the rework was done about 1936. By that time, the mag safeties were known to be undesirable so only a sear safety was added during the rework. This may also have been when a holdopen was added.

Thanks for the info. Can you suggest someone to do this repair work? I assume that having the repair done would be better than just getting a new firing pin.

I'm not sure, but Luger Doc, (Tom Heller) who posted above may be able to help you.

Yes I would get the original fixed since it is matching. I would also buy a new one for shooting. I'm sure Lugerdoc can fix you up. Bill

Patrick-

Your original question asked about value of the pistol. No one else has addressed this. IMHO, I offer this observation:

From a buyer's perspective, I see a gun that does not have all the original parts and a broken firing pin. I would pay 1k max and then get a replacement firing pin for $50.

It is a great family inheritance. Enjoy it, and get a new firing pin so you can shoot it.

Thanks for sharing the pictures. I learned a lot from the comments.

Tom, I'd like to acquire a good FP for this gun and get the original FP repaired if possible. Can you handle this? If so, how to proceed? Please email me at pqschipper@comcast.net.

Thanks!

Patrick

Shooter or not?
 

I'm obtaining an unnumbered firing pin for this gun and was wondering whether or not I should actually shoot the gun.

Given that the gun and parts are all matching (save for the firing pin) and the overall great condition of the gun, would it be better off in someone's collection?

God forbid that I should shoot it and actually break a matching, numbered part.

So, does anyone have any opinions on whether it should be a collectible or not? If so, how about suggesting a fair selling price.

Many thanks in advance,
Patrick

Your gun is most definitely collectable with a very interesting history. In my opinion it would be a shame to break a matching part.
I would sell it, buy a shooter and put several hundred dollars in your pocket.

I'd definitley keep it around as show and tell with that history. But the urge to shoot such an awesome gun, well it hard to fight that urge.