Luger lust, eye candy
 

Not sure if this is the right forum but I thought some of you might like seeing this very rare Luger. Sorry for the bad pics, best I could do at the time. :bowdown:

The Norton Gallery .45 Luger. I have never seen it in person. Obviously you have! Thank you for posting the photos.

Would this be the museum?

The Norton is located at:

4747 Creswell Avenue
Shreveport , LA 71106-1899


The Norton is open to the public from:
10 a.m. to 5 p.m. Tuesday through Friday
1 p.m. to 5 p.m. on weekends


For more information call 318-865-4201


- - -

http://www.rwnaf.org/collections/item?id=483

Looks like I need to put this on my visit planning list!

Marc

Marc,
That's the one.

yes, I had told them I was coming, so they were sharp-eyed and i was not able to snap any pictures when I went.

They should have a mirror behind it so you can see it, but to them, it is just one of about 30-40 other very rare guns in the room.

Ed

3? I thought it was 2?

Grew up in Shreveport and had always heard of the Norton museum gun collection but had never seen it until about 15 years ago, after I had moved out of state. Now when I am in Shreveport I try to make it by just to see the Luger.
These pictures were taken about 2 months ago and in the past I don't think they allowed photography of any kind. To my surprise on this visit there was a sign that stated
"No Flash Photography". I had 15 minutes before closing when I took these pictures.
As you can see the reflection off of the glass and low lighting makes for less than desired pictures. Had the same problem at the John Browning Museum, also on this same trip.

What are the risks in allowing flash photography in a museum like this?
dju

The gun collection is just a small part of the museum. There are many paintings and a doll collection in the museum. Only reason I can think of.

Depends on what you read

There are TWO remaining, the pictures from the test, shows a different grip angle than these two

IMHO, I have always felt there would be 4 or 5 made. 1 as a tool room model (maybe two) that would stay behind, 1 meant for destruction / testing and at least another for testing in firing and a backup in country. if I was making them :)

Besides the damage that 'flash' can have on some textiles, usually its because the museum sells books on the collections :cool:

That, and it's really annoying when 20 different people are taking flash photos all around you....

Nice pictures even without the flash!

I never noticed the very pronounced toggle stop at the rear of the .45 pistols before.

...And the accompanying wear of the bluing where it hits the frame... :D

It's been fired! Not as much wear as I would have thought, for a Test Trials pistol...

An interesting example of engineering. I have to wonder if this was just a scaled-up stopgap to satisfy the US Military Trials specs, or if there was any planning, calculating, and testing beforehand...

How did the 45 Luger perform in the testing??? I've never read any report on it/them...

Did Luger (or DWM, whoever) ever comment on why the 45 Luger was never offered commercially???

This gun was not used in the Test Trials, in fact neither of the two existing guns (the Norton and the Aberman) were part of the trials.

In the 1959 revised edition of "Luger Variations" by Harry Jones there is a color frontpiece of this gun. Under the illustration Harry wrote this caption:

"It is in fine condition; "GL" monogramed and has no serial number. Will it operate? In 1960, Norman Lee, Harry and Anne Jones fired this Luger 150 times; it functioned perfectly! Another .45 Caliber Luger is illustrated on page 108 [my (Ron) note: the Aberman gun]; contrary to constantly fabricated stories, there are only two known examples of thie impressive, over-sized Model."

In all, nine .45 caliber handguns were submitted for the U.S. Test Trials: 6 semiautomatic pistols (Colt, Luger, Savage, Knoble, Bergmann and White-Merrill); and 3 revolvers (Colt, Smith & Wesson and Webley-Fosberry Automatic Revolver). A full account of the performance of each firearm was written up in the "Report of Board on Tests of Revolvers and Automatic Pistols" by the Chief of Ordnance and published by the Government Printing Office in 1907.

A total of 1022 rounds were fired through the Luger. Oddly, only 959 rounds were fired through the Colt and in many respects the Luger outperformed the Colt! However, the strength and simplicity (and no doubt the US manufacture!) of the Colt prevailed.

I know of no written account of why DWM did not pursue continued production of the .45 Luger. A combination of factors no doubt was involved. The .45 semi-auto cartridge was a new development, only beginning to be adopted in the U.S. and not likely to find world-wide use for some time. Also, DWM had just landed a huge contract with Germany for the P08 which more than occupied their full production capability. Shortly thereafter WWI certainly would have stifled any further consideration of .45 production.

About 10 years ago one of the gun magazines got to fire one of these .45 Lugers. Does anyone remember the magazine story or have a copy?

Initials?
 

If I recall correctly, Datig tells of two .45 Lugers being submitted for the test; one was shot out and destroyed by the testing, the other was never shot for the test and just left behind by Georg Luger when he left for home. Both were reported by Datig as having no serial numbers but each was stamped on the frame with the initials GL. I can't tell from the photos, but could this one have "GL" stamped on it"

Regards,

Gunny

I have the Jones book, 1959, but not the revised edition...There is no color frontispiece (and no missing pages) but it does have a B&W pic on pg 108 and under comments on the facing page, Jones writes "Two of these Lugers, serials 1 and 2, were brought here in 1907 to be used as test weapons by the US Army...The specimen illustrated is serial number 2; serial 1 has not been found, nor has the prototype for these 45's..."

It is described as a model 1906, monogrammed GL on rear toggle link, unmarked center link, LOADED on extractor, serial on frame, no chamber/safety.receiver markings, and no proofs...

Also states that it was demonstrated by Georg Luger his own self... :D

More like almost 20 years ago!

The article was “We Shoot the Million $$ .45 Luger” and was in the June 1994 edition of “Guns & Ammo”. It was written by Garry James and is an account of the examination, photography and subsequent range firing on the Amberman .45 Luger that was the property of Michael Zomber at that time (the value of $1 Million was Zomber’s valuation!). An approximate total of 20 rounds were passed through the gun without malfunction, two into a bullet trap after the gun was initially cleaned and inspected and then about 18 more at the firing range. The conclusion was that the gun was easily capable of 1½ to two-inch groups at 25 yards.

Almost 20 years ago, time is not on my side.
Thanks to Ron Wood for the info and to "mrerick" for the link to Norton Art Foundation. The info from the link states there is a "GL" monogram on the rear of the rear toggle. Guess I will have to make another trip to see that in person!

...???...Nobody wanted the June '94 G&A magazine that *was* on eBay??? :confused:

I know that Ron must have a copy... :rolleyes:

That's OK...I got it... :p

I remember reading (can't remember where) that the US ordered 1000 more .45 cal Lugers for testing. Georg thought it would be too costly to tool up for an uncertain contract.

The U.S. Army placed an order for 200 additional .45 Lugers. In a final letter to the Ordnance Board, Hans Tauscher (the U.S. representative for DWM) wrote: "...I cannot accept the order for 200 Luger Automatic Pistols and 100,000 cartridges, etc...I regret all the more the withdrawal of the Luger pistol from the competition, as this pistol (cal. 9m/m and 7.65m/m) has hitherto been adopted by the German Army and Navy and six other Governments."

In other words, Tauscher speaking for DWM was telling the U.S. to 'walk West 'til you hat floats', we have plenty of other customers and we have spent enough time trying to win what we recognize is a losing battle against Colt. I am sure this was not Georg's decision but that of DWM executives (Georg was an engineer not a CEO).

I guess the million $ Luger is also a victim of the economy too.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar...er15-2010mar15

This is the first time I see pictures of the famous "Norton Luger".
Thanks a lot for sharing.
Douglas.

Backing Mr. Wood up: Attached are some documents related to the .45 test. Several manufacturers were invited to submit a .45 for the test. DWM, Savage, and probably others resisted the .45 ammunition at the tolerances specified by the US, such that the US could produce their own ammunition.

DWM pushed a 9mm "double bullet" as an alternative to the .45. This 9mm double bullet was tested separately (Test Report and correspondence Attached).

Also attached are some of Tauscher's correspondence concerning the order for 200 .45s. I do not have a copy of the letter informing the Ordnance Department that the order was cancelled. I think a copy is in Reese's book.

I posted elsewhere Georg Luger's pursuasive letter (missing page 4 of 4) attempting to convince the US that they didn't need a .45 and can provide upon request.

The documentation leading up to 1910 and beyond verify Reese's conclusion that DWM dropped out, and that another pistol was not selected over the Luger. It was some 4 years after DWM dropped out that the US officially selected an automatic pistol, the Colt.

Apologize for poor quality. I had limited time to capture thousands of documents.


Clark

Shooting the .45 Luger (Guns & Ammo, June, 1994)
 

Working with Postino who provided the scans, here's a PDF copy of the June, 1994 Guns & Ammo magazine article about shooting the .45 Luger...

Marc