Help with Identifing Markings 1914 P08
 

Hello all, I am new to these forums I love collecting WW2 and WW1 Military collectibles I always wanted a luger just never saw one that cought my eye until recently. I am no expert so I apoligize for the lack of knowlege.

I do know its a dwm 1914 that much is clear. I am told its a Military from WW1. The story on this is that it was brought back by a US GI after WW2. It came with a holster with the nazi eagle stamped with WaA788. It had a QMC 499 tag on it. When I went back to pick it up someone who worked there lost the QMC tag :crying:. If this was made in 1914 this could of seen use through WW1 and WW2 possibly ??? I wish this thing could talk to me then I would know for sure but we all know it does not work like that. :cheers:

Does anyone know what these markings mean. All sn match on every part of it except the magazine that has a wood bottom. benethe the barrel looking from the front it shows 8,82 What is that? (I could not get a good pic of that everything else see attachments. Thanks for looking.

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_222345.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_222431.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_222511.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_222526.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_222544.jpg

Hi Sam,
Welcome to the forum. Nice 1914 Military.
8,82 is the bore gage measured from land to land in millimeters. The europeans use commas instead of decimals.

Forgot to add the full pictures.

Thanks Mike.

I realize this is probably nothing rare or special but it looked to be in very nice condition and I could not pass it up. I don't even know if I ever want to shoot it. If I do it would only be once just to say I did. I have a commercial beater from 1942 thats in rougher shape for that.

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_230549.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120918_230602.jpg

Are the markings in any of these pics unit markings?

Unit marks are usually on the front grip strap.
Good decision not to shot it but, I know how you feel. Shoot the beater instead. The metallurgy was more advansed in 1942 than 1914.

Does anyone else find those halos somewhat different?

They look artificial?

The halos do look odd but not out of the question. The appearance of halos depends on a lot of factors, the particular batch of steel used in making the part, the strength and depth of the die strike, the conditions under which the gun was stored over the years, on and on. The appearance of the halos on this piece somewhat resemble the halos that were created on high dollar forgeries by micro-bead blasting. However, the halos on this gun are a bit more precise than the fakes I have seen, and while not a run of the mill Luger this gun is not of the elevated value that would warrant such fakery. I think the gun is likely legitimate.

Could be the glare from my flash I'll take better pics later. I noticed that pic shows an outline. In person it ddoes not look like that

I am a crappy photographer so sorry guys.

Not sure if it helps but I took some different pics disabling the flash and using some different colored back ground cloth. The blue tarp I used on the previous pictures tends to reflect light and cause unwanted glare etc....




http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213033.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213043.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213122.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213135.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213652.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213732.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120919_213802.jpg

The flag I know does not really fit this time period but it was the closest thing black I had to mute out ambient light.

I see no unit marking on the front grip strap.

That's better. It looks original now... It was the flash that made it stand out so much.

Thanks Mike I feel better about it. As I really do not know much about these guns. I have been collecting WW2 era items and weapons for years in my collection. This really intriuged me with its markings. The fact that it had the QMC 499 tag still on it gave me that feeling that I would of loved to add this to my collection. The first picture shows Imperial proofs right??? What do they mean Looks like SCS ??? Can anyone recommend any good books on the history of these weapons and markings?

Sorry to ask so many questions. This is my first WW1 piece and I am very interested in learning as much as possible about it. The last piece I purchased was a K98 that a WW2 GI took off a rack from a concentration camp Weapons room ! I found out later that it was a rare find but thats a discussion for the K98 forums ; ) Thanks guys for all your insight.

I still feel that the large "cloud" halo around the bore guage mark makes the halos in general suspect.

Higherauthority, Nice original Luger, a terrific find! One thing about the internet that you probably already know. No matter what gun you post, no matter how original it appears to be, there will always be posts that question it! Everyone is welcome to their view of course! No problem there. But I for one just look at the majority response and don't worry about the ever present contrary view. In this case I too find the "cloud" halo to be somewhat unusual! But I see no evidence that his gun is anything but original none the less.

Jan Still's 'Central Powers Pistols' is the most up to date reference and is still available.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=18438

The first pic definitely shows them as weird. Sometimes a pic lighted by flash can see through the surface. I'll cite two examples I've observed. I first noticed this phenomenon in a pic of a female acquaintance, in a black, knit Halloween costume. The image revealed the woman's bra and skin beneath the top's material. This happened because the light from the flash travels parallel to the line of sight of the camera. It's like using a flashlight to look into a hole--get it up by your eye; the closer to the eye, the further down into the hole you can see. The tiny spaces in knit material let the light thru to whatever is at the bottom of it (or in this case, what is behind the holes) to light what's there, then straight back out to be recorded by the camera. I've seen similar, flash-lit pics of celebrities on the net with this "X-ray" effect. The second example was a pic of me at a meeting. The pic made the area on top of my head, where the hair is thinnest, look as if the male pattern baldness had completed its job--the top of my head looked completely bald in the pic!

The haloed areas around the characters look weird in two ways. First, the edges of the halos in question are fairly distinct, and I'd expect them to fade out gradually as distance from the displaced metal increases--more of a gradient effect. Second, they are lop-sided--I think more than could be accounted for if the die were tilted a bit to one side when struck.

To reproduce this effect, one could dab a bit of rust/bluing remover onto each letter with the intent of lightening up the bluing in the area. Viewing the pics full size, the halos' distinct edges are pronounced. The "X-ray" effect of the flash may be revealing this, as it appears to show a small "puddle" area associated with each character.


Ron's point about this example's not being worth the fakery is well taken. Comparison--same resolution, same lighting--to another, but known, example would help. Has anyone had the same effect occur when taking a flash pic of any other original Luger of similar date of manufacture?

While I can't locate any specific photo examples of the "halo" being enhanced by the camera flash, I do know that I have seen similar photos.

IMHO the gun is authentic, and that the difference in the appearance of the structure of the metal surrounding each number that results from the impact of the stamping (and causes the halo) is the result of the flash lighting...

Welcome to the Lugerforum Sam. It is always great to have new enthusiasts in the collector community.

Hi Sam, and welcome to the forum.

You've got a very nice collectable 1914 DWM Luger. s/n 7623b. In general don't worry about disclosing the s/n. It helps those that maintain lists of known Lugers. In the future that is about the only think that will protect collectors by helping determine provenance and prior ownership.

Another Luger very close to your's in the "b" block has Crown/S Crown/G Crown/S ( C/S C/G C/S) acceptance proofs, which I believe is what's on your pistol's receiver. The eagle symbol is the imperial acceptance proof.

You'll get the best photos by using a tripod, the camera's closeup setting; shutting off the flash and using the self timer to prevent camera shake. Take the pictures on a dull grey or black background using shaded natural sunlight. The finish issues in the early photos are from reflection of the flash and over exposure.

Do you have a matching or period magazine for this pistol? Post some pictures of the holster and it's markings.

Any specific questions about your Luger?

Marc

Wow you guessed it right on the money 7623 is the sn. .uunfortunately the mag sn is the only one that does not match but it does have a walnut base. Well it looks like walnut. Dam now I want to get another one from www2 with ww2 era proofs. I can't believe the level of precision the Germans had back in 1914. I am not German but they seem time be some of the best engineers !


Here are pics of the holster and mags

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120920_162013.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120920_162019.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120920_162551.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/20120920_162555.jpg

The wood mag came with the 1914 the other that has the stick eagle and a #20 came with my beater 1942 commercial Luger.

I am assuming that who ever carried this luger cut the flap off the holster for easier/quicker access to the weapon ???? Was it common for these guys to do that?

I wish there was a way to find out who it originally belonged to or what unit he was with. Secondly wondering why there are no unit markings on it like others I have seen?

The only record that associates an individual with his firearm was his personal soldier book. There was a second book kept at unit level, but finding these is next to impossible for an individual soldier unless you already know their name, and the family or someone has the book.

Not all firearms were unit marked. Others that have studied them can give you details about the marking laws. The magazine pics are just fuzzy enough to make it hard to judge the stampings. The bases look good to me, and they are probably period. A better look at the bases and the sides could help confirm.

In that condition, the holster wouldn't appeal to a collector. That said, it looks like it probably was a reproduction. I haven't seen a "P.08" stamped in that font.

Marc

Hmm The guy I bought these from had 2 this nice 1914 one and a more beat up one from 1942 commercial. in the case they were not sure what holster went with what gun. Im going to get a better camera and take pics of both holsters and a better pic of the mag bottoms. Again I suck at photography lol . I only have my cell phone camera now my buddy next door has a nicer camera. I am almost wondering if they mixed up the holsters. The other one is brown he thought it went with the commercial Luger wait I just noticed a crown with a letter on the back of the other one hmmmm the only other stamp is Nuremburg on the inside flap

I would like to see pictures of your 1942 Commercial "beater" Luger! That is actually a very rare gun!

See this is exactly why I came here thank you for all the info guys before I put any rounds through them . I have already learned that my 1914 will remain a collector's piece and will not be fired. The intent was to get it as a collector's piece then buy a later model for a shooter. This 1942 is in rough shape so it was going to be my shooter. From what your saying now I may need to get another for shooter :D. It's a 5 digit sn with a crown over a "N" STAMPED all over it I will take pics after my interview for the job I already have :( dam corporate. Wish me luck guys

OK learned so much not only about Lugers but photographing close ups tripod works out great it helps to have a better camera than a stupid phone too.

Here are pics of my 1942 commercial (At least I was told it was 1942 can anyone confirm? SN 74320 All matching except magazine. Not as pretty as my 1914 but hey. I’m bummed the previous owner didn't really seem to take care of it. Shame on him. It looks like there was some rust on the barrel and he scraped it off with some kind of abrasive brush (BIG NO NO I want to cry) It shows the crown over "N" the holster smells musty and old and also shows the crown with "N” very hard to see but it’s near the stitching by the left belt loop. You may have to zoom in on some of these pictures to see many of these markings. The mag is what it came with. This shows some military markings. So I am sure it was an afterthought. I really hate people who don't take care of their firearms. There is absolutely no excuse.

So I am curious if this is a rare one and if it is there goes my thought of having this as my beater shooter : ( I guess I will have to get another

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0029.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0032.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0033.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0034.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0037.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0039.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0040.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0041.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0042.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0043.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0044.jpg

http://lanzafame.org/pic/DSCN0046.jpg

Hi,

Your holster is most likely a reproduction. I'm basing that on the appearance of the leather, stitching and the angle of the belt loops. (I, of course, stand corrected below by Jerry who is the master in this area)...

The Luger is a DWM commercial from the Weimar era. Post WW-I. Double check the caliber. It should not be 9mm Luger, but rather .30 Luger caliber. You'll find that the muzzle has a smaller hole than your other pistol. A #2 pencil should either not fit or fit tightly into it. In the 9mm barrel, the fit will be loose.

It would be very unusual to find a matched 9mm barrel on a DWM commercial pistol. There are other mis-matched parts on it.

The magazine is from just before WW-II. Its base looks authentic. This pistol should have a DWM manufactured wood base magazine.

Marc

Hmm thats weird I have some 9MM snap caps and they cycle through both of these with no issues. I have to find a dam number 2 pencil its been a long time since I took an SAT test. lol If the snap fits isnt it a 9MM? I have a walther pp and snap caps for it chanbered in 32 cal and those snap caps are loose in the barrel.

You can also take a 9mm round, and (at the muzzle end of the barrel) see how it compares to the bore.

Marc

Marc! Reproduction holster? You need more holster lessons Grasshopper...Nothing wrong with this original holster. Other than it needs a light coat of lanolin to keep the surface from cracking any more than it already has. It's a nice one. Likely will have a date near the maker mark under the top lid.

The barrel serial matches the frame..Likely either made in 9MM or refurbished with a 9MM barrel. The toggle pin is numbered 20 and it's my guess this pistol was refurbished by Mauser.

Well the 9mm snap cap moch bullet head fints in perfectly and stops at the casing. The 32 cal snap cap will fit all the way in including the casing. So I would say its a 9MM.

thats actually a great idea

The only mismatched parts are the mag and the trigger spring with a 33 on it all others have matching sn

Is this really a 1942 ?

NO! Whatever knucklehead told you that..mark him off your list of Luger experts..It is a DWM manufactured pistol. DWM made their last pistols at the end of WW1, 1918. Maybe a few into the weimar era from parts etc but effectively production stopped when the war did.
I am sure someone who knows serial numbers can come close to an actual date of manufacture.

Trigger spring with 33? You must mean some other part. The trigger spring is like a ball point pen spring..it is buried behind the trigger and has no number.

The guy who sold it to me said he thought it was a 1942. i can not make out the date on the holster I can only see the word Nuremburg

can not make out the date on the holster ..nor can I. I blew up your photo as they are huge but I could not make out the date. It is a military holster and the date WAS there but lightly stamped and gone into the sueded underside.

One other tip on photo's. Crop them to block out the background..show just what you want to see. Loading huge megapixel photo's like yours leaves out many members who might have opinions because they cannot download them.

One other thing on photo's of small numbers etc. I pick up the pistol and move about the available lighting untill a perfect shot shows up in my viewfinder. Laying the weapon on a table ..even with a stand limits your lighting so much you get photo's that no detail can be seen. Try it you'll like it.

Im gonna crop them out since they are linked and not uploaded they will update. I agree that the thread takes forever to load due to large size. I am an administrator/developer myself for a few other forums (NOT FIREARMS RELATED) and I am used to SMF. I know that system inside and out. It resizes them automatically. Vbulletin is great I have to get used to it. Im hoping if I adjust all my pics it will annoy everyone less. I totally understand the frustration of noobs lol

Jerry, Thanks for the correction on the holster. I certainly don't want to mislead...

I made my comments based upon the non-oblong upper hole in the closure strap, the coarse appearance of the stitching and the lack of an angle to the belt loops, which look almost squared off with the edge of the holster. Didn't have an edge on view to check.

Gotta hit the books on the DWM commercial in this serial range in 9mm.

The sear bar is #33 rather than 20.

Marc

Marc..No harm! WW1 holsters can be a bit different..This one is a little like you say. The loops ARE canted..See the right one way above the hinge? The left is just to the bottom edge? These are a little unusual in that they have a large loop in them too..Stitching size varies a lot on WW1 holsters. Some are made like commercial holsters..seemingly with a dressmakers sewing machine! Tiny thread and close stitching. Most though are like this ..large spacing between holes and a medium to large thread.
WW2 holsters start out with small thread and the closer to 42-43 the larger the thread got! The thread was a linen..made fron the flax plant and is actually pretty weak as modern thread goes by comparison. The thicker/more thread count..2-3-4- it was the stronger.

Thats my mistake. Everything matches except the sear bar and MAG. I just dissassembled the entire weapon and there is a #20 stamped on everything else. I also discovered all sorts of other markings but all other parts that I can tell have the #20 stamped on them. Thats kind of crazy they stamped just about every dam part. Dam looks like this is now not going to be my shooter :o

The other letters and numbers stamped in less visible places are production inspection stamps. They were used to indicate completion and acceptance of production steps along the way to becoming a Luger.

The letters, numbers and symbols were generally associated with individual workers.

Marc

Pics resized for friendly view
 

So based upon these pics in your opinion would you shoot this commercial version ever. So you think its 1918 production not 1942 like I was told?

I ended up resizing the pics to load the thread faster as suggested.

I thought the dwms without suffixes were made prior to alphabets beginning in the early twentys.
glazing a resource puts it 820 lugers behind the first one out in 23

DWM continued to produce new Lugers after WWI. Tens of thousands of commercial Lugers were produced and sent to the US and other countries in the twenties and also 1920 and 1921 dated Army/Police military contract Lugers were produced. DWM made Lugers until 1930 when Luger production was moved to Mauser. I believe S#74320 would be considered a 1914 commercial, and is proper with a 9mm barrel. According to Dwight Grubers commercial database it was made around 1915. As Jerry noted, the numbered rear axle pin was added later.

Maybe a few into the weimar era from parts etc but effectively production stopped when the war did. Sorry..Mike is quite correct..I was thinking Military..

Shake 1942 completely out of your mind! This pistol was made decades earlier!

Much better photo's!