Need Help w/ Provenance & Various Other Questions
 

I was just given a P-08 for my 44th BDay. I know the pistol has been in my stepfather's family since the early '80's when I first saw it. The back story is that a relative brought it back from WWII and gave it to my stepfather's father, who died young and gave it to him/his mother in the 60's... Now I have it.

I have, what I think, is a DWM that was made before the war and maybe given a second service life with the Nazi party, as possibly a "parade" gun or "full dress" gun.

It has the "DWM" inscription on the top of the pistol (forgive my terminology, I am a S&W revolver kinda guy). The serial number is 1297 and matches on all pieces... Smaller pieces only have the 97 on them.

The top of the barrel is stamped "1918" but my understanding is that simply indicates the year of the military contract it was produced under... Not the year of manufacture... Correct?

I've been reading and there are stamps all over the place on these things, but there are no eagle-swastika stamps on mine, that I can see at least. (I've not taken it apart). On the right side of the breach/body, are the 4 stamps I see attributed to the DWM pistols, but the front one was poorly impressed. It appears worn but is not because there is no wear on the metal there.

On the underside of the barrel is the serial number and underneath that, a script L. At the base of the barrel, where it flutes, is "8,84." It is a 4 inch barrel.

On the left side of the toggle mechanism (right behind the chamber indicator) is a stamp that I cannot make out. I'll have to find a magnifying glass and I'll keep looking on the internet.

So, all this tells me I am looking at a 20's to 30's pistol... I am wrong?

Here are the curious parts... To me at least.

I have two magazines, with wood pull handles (not metal). One is stamped on the bottom with the same pistol serial number, but is chipped. The second is stamped "142" so I do not think it was the original "second clip." I have a leather holster with a swastika stamped on the flap.

My best guess is that this an earlier pistol that was adopted into service as a showpiece or a "full dress" sidearm.

Can someone tell me what PICs to take to help out with this? (I can maybe send you a Starbuck's giftcard for your effort).

Also, my stepfather gave me a modern clip and told me to use that when shooting... Which prompts a few questions.

Should I keep the vintage clips unloaded?

Should I even shoot this pistol at all or will that devalue it? (I'd sure like to enjoy it a bit).

Does anyone know of a quality gunsmith here in Atlanta to put their eyes on this and check it out for functional integrity and maintenance?

It's kinda funny because I have coveted this pistol for about 30 years, played with toy versions in my youth, and I am now fortunate enough to have it. It is among my 5 or 6 prized possessions in life and I need some help understanding what I have and how I need to preserve it.

Thanks in advance,

JKC

PS and for what it is worth, I'd say condition is above average to very good. I'd qualify excellent at a museum piece (never fired) and this one looks like it was used (in the military) for about 2 to 3 years and responsibly stored for the balance of the time.

no, there are no known parade guns

stamp is the year of manufacturer

take pictures of full left, full right, top, close up of any markings

Where is the holster stamped, the rear?

pictures of holster, full front, full rear and close ups

use, natural, slightly shaded lighting for best pictures

Saw this and wanted to comment, also made it where you get notified when people comment

This is likely the proof for the breechblock

Edward,

Thanks for the reply. I do not have a camera with me today and am a bit of a Luddite with technology but will get PICs up soon.

Interesting about parade/full dress guns and the date stamp on top of barrel. Why is a 1918 pistol paired with a Nazi holster? Why were they stamped? That common? Any direction for further reading?

The holster is stamped on the top of the inside flap as "1917" but then embossed on the front of the flap with the swastika.

Sorry to sound like an idiot, I just assumed this was one that had been picked up and put into service at a later date... I guess I just don't have an understanding of the German armory then and practices.

Oh yeah, just read the thread on "... tools" and the tool pouch in my holster is empty. If the pistol turns out being pretty valuable, then I'll look for a period-correct tool to complete the set.

Thanks, again, for your feedback.

Take it easy,

JKC

From what I am reading, the Luger was big in Hollywood, but really the P-38 was the service pistol. So this one is probably some unimportant one of hundreds of thousands that was simply floating around?

Also, I do have my IPhone if you want me to shoot and text them too you today. Let me know.

Thanks again,

JKC

It is very, very unlikely that the nazi stamp is original on the holster, would need pictures.

Take pictures with your phone, send them to yourself, attempt to post, might have to resize, but should work.

Lugers were the mainstay gun prior to ww1, Weimar period, then up to 1938 (p38 stands for 1938), however the Luger was made until 1942 and a few were made later...

So, they were used for many years and you see ww1 guns used in ww2 frequently.

Thanks. Why don't you email me off line and let me give you my number? Be easier for me. Stratojkc@yahoo.com.

I am reading about stuff being faked, but I am pretty sure this one was around before there was an interest in faking, if you know what I mean. Plus, it was not sold to me and I am not looking to sell it for a profit. (In fact, for family reasons, I couldn't sell it unless it was worth a gajillion).

So, I believe it must be authentic, albeit cobbled together. Though, you have me wondering about the holster. It fits well and looks like other Luger holsters and the stamp does not seem added... I just wonder. I am also discovering this is kind of a different breed of cat from Colt '45s or 1911s.

In the office this afternoon and will start trying to take some PICs with my phone.

Let me know and I'll send you that Starbucks Card.

Thanks, again. It'd be cool to tell my stepdad what he actually gave me and a little bit of history on it.

JKC

Got PICs in my phone now. If you can email me privately, I'll send and let you take a look.

Thanks,

JKC

Hii welcome to the forum

Go to the 'Quick Reply' box at the bottom of the page.
Click on 'Go Advanced'.
Fill in your title and message.
Scrool down and click on 'Manage Attachments'.
Click on 'Browse'. Find your photo on your computer. Double click on the photo (repeat for multiple photos).
Click on 'Upload'.
Close 'Manage Attachments' window.
Click on 'Submit Reply'.

Got it. Except photos are on my iPhone... Uggh. I hate technology!

Shoot me a phone and I can text them to you, or I am continuing to figure out how to send to me

K

I now have many photos at my email I am saving to my computer.

then will paste

Now I am at home. I can email to you directly from here but I will need to do one at the time. Take a look and let me know what you think.

JKC

it is a DWM, 1918 luger, made during the war years, the holster is a 1917 that someone post war added the swastika.

Here are the pictures (sent you replies via email also)

more pictures

Thanks. Can and should I shoot it or will that kill any value to it? Anyone here in Atlanta you suggest taking a look at it before I shoot it?

Thanks, again.

JKC

i should let other folks jump in, but shooting it; well two thoughts on that; they were made to shoot and it probably would be just fine.

That said, you break a numbered part and you essentially make it from a $1400+ gun to $600-$800


Ed

Well being ther are answers on this, I will just tell you what i think. I love it. SHe sure is pretty. Congradualtions on such a wonderful gift! For my 47th I got a gun back hat I lost in pawn 23 years ago....Lugers are just the best, and this is no exception, I love the deph of the finish!

looks good .... Nice ww1 run of the mill . thanks for posting

Hi Jim, and welcome to the forum.

Congratulations on receiving your family heirloom.

You do have what appears to be a collectable Luger. It looks to be in very good condition, and in it's original finish.

Don't store it in the holster. This can cause corrosion as the acids used in tanning leather can continue their work on metals.

Your pistol's complete serial number is "1297l" The "l" italic lower case "L" character is part of the s/n, and a suffix. Are all the numbered small parts "97"? If you want to dis-assemble it, check out the tutorials on this site, and be very careful, especially with the left grip near the safety lever. Use the right size screwdriver to avoid galling the grip screw slots.
It would be wise to resist the temptation to fire it, since breaking a part (particularly a numbered one) reduces it's financial value considerably, as well as it's historic value. Breakage of Lugers, particularly older ones, is not uncommon. You'll find a number of "regret" postings on this board if you search.

Try to post a picture of the base of the matching magazine. "G.T." on this board can probably repair it for you. The matching magazine, if authentic, adds to the value of your Luger about 15-25%.

The Germans never marked holsters like yours. As it was done post war, it eliminates collector interest in the holster, and considerably reduces it's financial and historic value.

"8.84" on the barrel refers to it's caliber, which is 9mm Luger.

The "halos" around the barrel s/n confirm that it is in original finish.

It may be a rather high state condition. Hard to estimate from the pictures. The higher the condition state, the more valuable. Strawing looks very good.

Store it without anything loaded in the magazines, and with the firing pin relieved (not cocked).

Marc

Someone help me understand what are "halos" around serial numbers. I read that in 2 or 3 different post now.

Hey guys. Thanks for all the pointers. Yes, all the small pieces have the 97 suffix, at least the ones I can see and I agree about taking it apart. I did not know about storing it in the holster and will remove it. Thanks for heads up on that too. I'll get the matching magazine posted tomorrow and see if it can be repaired. Basically, part of the wood on the leading edge has chipped away and so the plug pivots partially out of the magazine. It still holds but would not under usage. I am fairly certain it is authentic. I just cannot figure out the holster issue.

I'll try to get some better shots of the pistol if it would help anyone.

Again, appreciate all your comments. It helps me understand what I have. As stated above, the fact that I got a family heirloom really hit home. I nearly cried when I got it.

Take it easy,

JKC

I just scrolled back up. The PIC of me holding the magazine is the original one to the pistol. You can faintly make out the 1 (bad lighting). On the side where my thumb is is where the missing part of the wooden plug is and you can see down into the magazine...

See what I am talking about? I'll post better shots tomorrow.

Thanks,

JKC

I just cannot figure out the holster issue.

Let me help you out a little..Faking German militaria pretty much started in WW1. The first known famous example was Walt Disney..He was a Soldier and at the end of WW1 he decided to embellish helmets...For entertainment or financial gain..who am I to judge. These helmets are well known in collector circles and very highly sought after and needless to say..horribly expensive.

Faking, embellishing, fabricating, GI graffitti..whatever collectors wish to call it has been around WAY longer than you can imagine. I would guess that Ameriacan GI's had a real propensity for embellishment...
All that being said..Your holster probably falls into the embellishment or GI graffitti catagory. The swastica was likely a popular motif at the time this old warhorse was captured and whoever captured it was severly disapointed that the holster did not have such an imbellishment and he immediately corrected that deficiency. I would guess that the GI who came by this pistol did not know it was WW1 vintage...Even if he might have been aware..might not have cared.

What we do know about it is that it is a WW1 holster. Likely around the same date as your very fine pistol. MOST Luger holsters from this era were dated..Normally the date would be found somwhere near the manufacturer stamp. I didn't see it there..In 1918 some customary practices that were previously iron clad were discarded out of apathy, lack of manpower or overlooked as the war came to a close. Unless the date is inside your holster under the top you may never determine exactly the date of it's manufacture. If you find no date apon close examination in all the likely places I suspect 1918.

For many collectors this symbol defaces the holster..Most like to see very nice WW1 holsters in original condition. If you are confident the provenance holds true..it is likely one of your dear departed relatives did it. In your case..it simply adds to the story you have been told.
Congratulations..you have been given a very nice gift. Were I in the same position I would hunt down the military photo albums of the relatives involved..He may have a photo of him and the luger!

Jerry,

Thanks for the reply. The holster is date stamped 1917, so I am assuming it could be original to the pistol. There is no tool.

What surprises me is that this pistol was never, at least as far as I know, intended for sale... It was purloined (OK, stolen) as a prize and given to my stepfather's father sometime in the 1950's... Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money.

But you are the expert on this and when someone on the board questioned it, I looked and the Swastika was done (... very carefully) by hand--not stamped. I suppose you are correct that it adds to the story, at least.

I will try to get the original magazine fixed if I can. Also, any ideas of where to find a period correct tool, and how much I'd pay for one?

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. It has helped a lot.

JKC

Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money.

This was not intended to be a rarity to sell but rather a remembrance of where it came from IMO. It's my guess this was captured during WW2 ...

Skeeter,

Look at my PIC of the DWM mark on the top of the pistol. (The one posted right above me holding the clip between my thumb and forefinger).

See how the numbers 97 have lightened shading around them... Kinda like an oil slick in water? I think that is what they are referring to. I am guessing once you refinish, those go away and the finish is more uniform?

In any event, my next job is to check the bore (any help)? And, trying to figure out how much this was fired... And, get it's condition graded.

This board is informative and fun and I look forward to reading more and participating as appropriate.

JKC