I don't really know what it is, but its old
 

[IMG]http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...ProofLuger.jpg[/IMG]

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...Proofmarks.jpg

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...Proofmarks.jpg

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/proofDWM.jpg

I wish there was a way to research via the serial number

Oops posted one twice

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...roofSerial.jpg

Yes somebody nickel plated the poor thing

I wonder if Evaprorust would get the nickel finish off so it could be properly blued.

Nickel is easely removed by a reverse electro-plating process. It is probably not worth it on this particular pistol, since it has issues, not the least of which is a ground off chamber date.

Where is the chamber date located? In my short research I read all do not have them If its the number next to the DWM, its "03." Does not show in the pictures

The date was located above the chamber. Only 1908 military 'first issues' were not dated (1908 or 1909) but they did not have a stock lug as yours does. The stock lug was introduced on PO8's in 1914. As Alanint (Doug) stated, there was a date on it which was removed.
'03' are the last two digits of the serial number. If the gun is all matching, '03' should be located on many various parts.

Looks to me that this luger may have been in Police use at one time. Notice the hole where the sear safety would be attached.

Good catch, Dave!

The nickel plating is part of the gun's history. The pistol is heavely buffed and will not look all that much better blued. Since at least parts of the gun saw police use, there is a chance that some parts are mismatched. If the gun shoots, I would leave it as it is.

Thank you all, for the comments. I don't know if its matching but it has "03" in many places. The magazine does not match. Its 9694
By holes are you refering to the detent holes below the safety lever that catch the selector in safe or Gesichert?
This is very interesting stuff. These are like 1911's, they all look alike. One must be very sharp to catch the differences.
Is there a way to figure manufacture dates? I've looked thru the technical stuff but do'nt understand much. Seems like the serial numbers were used over and over. And that any letter after the serial may have been polished off.
The gun shoots like a champ. I have been its caretaker for just under 20 years. I clean it, wipe it down and evey now and then I run a magazine or two thru it. The trigger is crisp and its very accurate.
The story it came with would put it as "picked up" in France sometime after D-day. The owner my father in law operated a machine gun on a Higgins boat. He was shortly after reduced in rank and sent to the Pacific where he was captured by the Japanese. The first version I heard had the gun taken from a Japanese officer. I lean toward the France version, one thing I do know, its not a Nambu. I've heard after the invasion there were piles of Lugers that GI's could just pick from. I would have thought there would have been piles of P38's

Was looking at the offical serial number. The numbers take up almost all the space. Not much room for a letter.
The bottom of the barrel is also marked with the 1803. On the barrel at its base where it flares to the chamber are the numbers "8 83". There is a scratch that I first thought was a comma between the two 8's. Its the only place I have found a different number on the gun. They are small, the size of the prookmarks.
I can take as many pictures as you nedd, just let me know

The suffix / letter would be under the serial numbrer on the frame.

The 8,83 is correct, like that and is the bore land to land measurement.

It is possible you have a no suffix luge, meaning that it was first 10,000 made that year, so not valuable or anything.

The proof and acceptance markings on the right show it went into military service during WW1, and so the date was definitely removed.

Not sure why anyone would think the if it went into police service it was more likely to be mismatched, that is completely a wrong assumption... Police lugers were taken care of by armories when the local armored could not fix the issue.


Ed

I have no issue with value. Just read an article here where a fellow used a niclel plated gun to practice witness marks because its value could not be deminished any more than being nickel plated. And its family history, can't sell family history. Also I don't feel bad shooting it since its not taking away from value. Actually I thought about a re-nickel as where the plating is good it a sweet looking piece.
BUT, if it was made before or during WWI then there may be a safety issue in shooting it. I own a 100 year old Colt .38 in very good shape. I shoot it every now and then too. I don't really enjoy guns I can't shoot.
My issue is how old the gun is. And if the "picked-up" story is plausable. My wife was very close to her Dad and wants to believe he told her the truth. If its a WWI gun then it could have been captured and obtained by her Dad in France. That would make her day.

Hi Steve, The Imperial proof marks on the right side of the receiver prove conclusively that this is a WW1, German Army issue gun.
Regards, Norm

I read the proof marks as SES, which would make this late 1914, early 1915.

Steve, This is the "hole" we are talking about on your luger where the sear safety would have been installed.

Besides this hole, notice that your sideplate also has a rectangular cutout on the top, (lower left in photo) and visible inside this cutout is a second hole, which the sear safety would drop into once the sideplate is removed. All these modifications indicate police use.

[IMG]http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/v...afetyholes.jpg[/IMG]

Ok, these are the sear safety holes and cutout. These prove Police use. I like that I'm a rertired cop. Would this have been German State Police or maybe Military Police? I guess the real question is... Were these weapons put back into Military service for WWII? Somehow I need to get the gun to France by 6 June 1944.
I've learned from Mr. Tinker that these guns had the date ground off before their Military service.
And FNorm has narrowed the production date to 1914-1915
This is amazing information. Thanks so much to you all.
I never would have thought my Colt Army Special is older than the Luger. I learned yesterday its production year was 1913.

I don't know that the Germans ground off the chamber date. I have a 1916 DWM that still has her chamber date and even has the Russian capture marks on it from when the Soviets captured her during the Second World War. The East Germans didn't ground off the date either. My guess is that whoever nickel plated you Luger ground off the date for whatever reason.

I don't know it either. But these folks here know much much more than me.
Now I am wondering if any Police records surrvived.

The Police would not have ground off the date. Judging from the extensive buffing in this area, I'm guessing that the area might have developed rust and pitting, (which is usually the reason for nickeling a Luger) and was treated by buffing the entire area down. This happened sometime post war. Remember that vets did not place the same value as we do on these guns. They were tossed into glove compartments, tool boxes and bilges as car and boat guns, with little concern as to their finish.

Again the missing date is not an issue. It is the opinion of another member, and I like his opinion. The finish is also not an issue. There are one or two family members I hope to ask about the plating. Beyond that it is what it is. A collector looked at it at a gun show 20 years ago and valued it at $400 as a shooter. I understand no Lugers came with factory nickel.
*I'd like to find where the gun went before it was picked up and beacme a BringBack.
*I am going to get it inspected to determine if I can continue to shoot it. (I hope so)
I didn't understand how old it was. Its nice on the inside. I may even renickel it so it looks good on the outside too.
At the heart of my issues are my wife wondering if her Dad lied to her about the gun. I've tried to explain that we Vets tend to remember things a bit more excitingly than perhaps a film of the "action" would appear. So now I want to find a beleiveable way the gun could have ended up in or near Normandy on D-day.
So the big question at the moment is ... Did WWI Police reissued guns from the 1914-15 era get drafted back into service for the second Great War? Were people that had them allowed to bring them to the war? I assume they were not privately owned until after WWII, if they have Army proofmarks. Reccomended book are welcome too.
Any information is appreciated
Thanks
Steve

I think I need to add... I have a few pages written that follow serial 1803 thru the years until my Father in-law obtains it. Been reading history and making noted. My intent is to present her with a "story" with the facts, mostly learned here highlighted. The balance being something that could of happened where there is no way to determine what really happened. This way the next generations can know what I really know and read a good story. My draft includes the fact that it was made either before or soon after Archduke Ferdinand got wacked by a Serbian. Most likely after as it was 1 of the first 10K made in either 1914 or '15. Its got to be a plasuable story however as she has a BA in History and teaches that era. I like to write and when I get history wrong I hear about it.

Steve, here is a link over to Jan C. Stills website to a thread that in the very begining of it will answer your question about German Police of the era.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...3-Policelugers

Is there a letter suffix on the Luger? If your father-in-law fought in that area and that where he said that he got it, I would say you should take his word on it. Do you have any idea if he had bring back papers on it? Perhaps if he has a stash of old documents you might find it there..... Then again he may have just bought it off someone over there or even here in the states. If I were you I would just keep the story that your father-in-law told and leave it at that.

Doubtful. Are there any markings on the grip straps?

FN

No bring back papers that we found. He was a very secretive man and I'm sure some records were lost in storage units and safe deposit boxes he told nobody about.
There are no marks on the grip straps. Alanint is correct the weapon was heavely buffed before plating so more than the date may be missing.
Somehow her Dad was reduced in rank (Deck Courts Martial) just before D-day and was assigned as a gunner on a Higgins boat. We don't know how he ended up onshore, but told his daugher he "took the gun and the hat insigina from a dead Officer.
Next we know he was reassigned to the Pacific theater on a Destroyer Escort. Then he was a POW of the Japanese. Or perhaps the ship steamed for the other ocean, we don't know.
I'm told guys could just stick a pistol in a box address it home and nobody would check.
I opened this can of worms about the Luger, so now I will follow it where it leads. Something like the original story will result.

Patronen, thanks for the link. I'm going to look in to the book if its still available

Alanint, Just a note: Steve McQueen was one of the coolest men ever! If I were to use a star as an avatar my choice would be James Garner

Did you try to get the old man's records at NARA ?
http://www.archives.gov/veterans/
It could be an interesting start for your research.
Douglas

Nothing wasted...
 

Hi,

To answer your question about re-use of a police Luger during WW-II, remember that it is the nature of Germans to not waste anything.

A WW-I pistol taken into police service during the Weimar Era could well have had it's sear safety removed, with the pistol then returned to military service. That would not have been unusual.

It's most likely that the nickle plating work was done after the pistol was brought into the USA. Many veterans did this with their war trophies.

Determining this conclusively would be difficult, but this is a likely scenario. Congratulations on your family heirloom.

Should you inspect it and find it safe to shoot, use standard velocity ammo.

Marc